Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[Luca Ongaro]

Rule number one, and the only rule.

1. Rare unit = FAKE. All three CG HG wraps threads verify this as does this thread.

LINKS:


1. CG HG wrap thread 1: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...llectors+guild

2. CG HG thread 2: Continuing a Discussion : http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ing+discussion

3. CG HG wrap thread 3: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...llectors+guild

About rare wraps, I wonder if the rare luftwaffe assault gun wrapper for a medic, presented as original just few moths ago, could be now declared a repro as well, considering many think do not buy anything from that site

http://www.relicsofthereich.com/view...h=2957&phqu=10

Luca

[B. N. Singer]

About rare wraps, I wonder if the rare luftwaffe assault gun wrapper for a medic, presented as original just few moths ago, could be now declared a repro as well...

http://www.relicsofthereich.com/view...h=2957&phqu=10

Luca

Er, ah, yes, since you asked Mr.Ongaro, as a matter of fact it could (is) IMO.

But maybe that should have its own thread

B. N. Singer

[phild]

About rare wraps, I wonder if the rare luftwaffe assault gun wrapper for a medic, presented as original just few moths ago, could be now declared a repro as well, considering many think do not buy anything from that site

http://www.relicsofthereich.com/view...h=2957&phqu=10

Luca

I'm just glad that the German's never attached chicken wire to their tunics or winter whitewashed them (although I have seen winter reversible suites whitewashed) or we collectors would really be in for a hard time in authenticating uniforms.

I too have some issues with the wrap posted at that link.....from the ground up not just insignia. It is a good example of how the fakes can have a good look to them at first pass and on a form.....but just not check out when looked at for details consistent with what should be expected and for credible wear (or no wear) through out the item. I will add that this one may be ok...but I do have some questions from the photos about the wear patterns and a couple of sewing details in the construction.

[Luca Ongaro]

Er, ah, yes, since you asked Mr.Ongaro, as a matter of fact it could (is) IMO.

But maybe that should have its own thread

B. N. Singer

Indeed should have its own thread Sir, but is nice to see you have edited your sentence adding "could".
Luca

[B. N. Singer]

...but is nice to see you have edited your sentence adding "could".
Luca

Sir, it would seem that my edit needs clarification, that example IS (IMO) a Fake; and I entertain NO Doubt about it.
B. N. Singer

[Willi Z.]

That wrap looks like it was copied from the one featured in the Kurtz "German Para" book. And for only $8300, I don't understand why it hasn't sold. Many would fly around the world just to pick up a Luft assault gun wrap without all the jazz for that price. I hope we are just joking here.....

[John Pic]

" But maybe that should have its own thread "

Mr.Singer may I ask why? What would be discussed? It would be posted and then you and a few of the other old school guys will say, "Its fake but we can't say why." and the other side will say," but you need to prove it, I don't see anything wrong with it"....and then some will say, "Well just look who the seller is". A thread is a waste of time don't you think? Unless those who know wraps and the history behind them can point out the details of the fakery.... I agree with you it can be nothing but a fake IMO but Im starting to doubt that discussing uniforms is a worthwhile excercise without more depth.

[B. N. Singer]

...Mr.Singer may I ask why?...A thread is a waste of time don't you think? .

Your right, no point; unless some unwitting rube walks eyes wide open into buying it.

And that is my SOLE reason for giving my Opinion on any of these threads, to TRY to help someone from making what might be a costly mistake.

As in the case of the Pz Pio wraparound, the subject of this thread, this "FJ" garment is a Fake from the Ground up.

And not to sound high-hatted, but I don’t give a camel’s hump if people put any validity into what I might say (As has been pointed out any number of times, three in this thread alone #113, #486 & #489, please do reference "my" SS officer's wraparound thread as proof of what little I know http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=226970 ).

B. N. Singer

[John Pic]

You have one SS Panzer wrap black eye ......I was kicked in the balls by four SS officer tunic's to the tune of $9000 ...thats how we learn and become qualified to give opinion. I was lucky to recoup that money in the sale of a real one I wish I didn't have to sell but mistakes are costly. You know what these are just by looking...and for the first time I will admit something to give the over zealous collectors a clue....I bought things that in my gut I knew were wrong just by looking at them...and just as Mr. Singer points out...I wishfully hoped they were not bad when I got them...but each time they arrived I went over them and found the unmistakable signs of post war tampering...I should've known better I have been around and handled many real tunics but my money and desire burnt holes in my pockets...I hope people learn to have more patience and stop making these guys wealthy.

[B. N. Singer]

You have one SS Panzer wrap black eye ......I was kicked in the balls by four SS officer tunic's to the tune of $9000 ... I was lucky to recoup that money....

Bravo sir!

As for me, I stripped the wraparound and sold it to someone, who had followed the jacket on the WAF thread debate, and I kept the insignia for myself.

What I find instructive (and a bit humorous) is that whenever I really trouble some of our fellow WAF members with my postings/opinions, there is a tendency to raise the matter of “my failure ” in the SS officer wraparound thread, as an attempt to disparage.

Regards,
B. N. Singer

[John Pic]

I think the lesson in that thread is as an example of how people tend to believe in something because it is connected to a person they respect. Im afraid I am a culprit in using it to needle you in the past...on my part this will not happen again. People respect others because they know their ability and you have that respect from many old timers. I for one am happy these dangerous fakes are being outted finally.

[Richard P]

What if the base wrap, the medic wrap is real, and only had a breast eagle on it originally? Some dork dudes it up with whatever insignia he wants to put on it, thinking he has done a great job. Uh oh...now its a rare wrap and therefore must be fake. Because some guy takes an already rare wrap and makes it too rare, out goes the baby with the bath water.

Richard

[Luca Ongaro]

What I find instructive (and a bit humorous) is that whenever I really trouble some of our fellow WAF members with my postings/opinions, there is a tendency to raise the matter of “my failure ” in the SS officer wraparound thread, as an attempt to disparage.

Regards,
B. N. Singer

Maybe to point out that you can make big mistakes as in this and many other cases.
Nobody is perfect, me too

Here was presented the first time:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=299431

Luca

[B. N. Singer]

...that you can make big mistakes as in this and many other cases.
Nobody is perfect, me too

Here was presented the first time:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=299431

Luca

Sir, I may not present details for my opinions but, I do Not believe that I have ever claimed to be infallible.

However, in the specific case that you have pointed to, there was NO mistake made on my part. And I stand by my comments made in that thread.

Further, I reiterate that IMO, the example presented by Mr. Davis (and others), is a FAKE garment (Original insignia); a brother in arms intended to deceive, as is the Pz Pio wraparound of this thread.

Be my guest and begin a new thread on the "FJ" wraparound as this one has become almost too long for the average collector the read through.

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

And you are to be commended for that effort. I have never gotten the impression that your intentions were other than trying to help out your fellow collectors. For the purpose of this thread I think that was your primary motivation, as opposed to proving for histories sake whether the item is original or not. I think you made your decision early on whether it was good or bad. Of course thats just my humble opinion and certainly not meant to put words in your mouth.

I understand the frustration of many for being assaulted because they don't provide specifics on why an item is wrong or not. Its a scenario that is repeated at least once a day on the WAF, if you consider all the various forums. If the person asking the question searched through previous threads they could find many of the answers.

For some newbies (not necessarily to the hobby, maybe just the subject at hand) they are truly here to learn. Those folks actually do read previous threads looking for answers, despite the cumbersome search process and frustration when you find a great thread only to find all the pictures are gone! For some persons the WAF is just a convienent tool to be exploited because the person is too lazy to do the work.

Mr Singers name is well known to the WAF membership, as are a number of other individuals. IMHO he is one of the most experienced and knowledgeable persons when it comes to Panzer uniforms, as well as other non Panzer subjects. IMHO when he blesses something as original, its as good as a claim of "Vet Pickup", when that term meant something. His standards for originality are extremely high, but not exactly rigid. Contrary to the results of the Poll done on him ha,ha.

From a personal perspective he and I battled for years over this Officers Wool M43 hat which he knew going in and said was blessed as coin of the realm by the collecting community. After several years of effort, I doubt I swayed him one bit:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=161382

But yet you didn't trash me on the Grey Green Denim wrap discussion even though most others were very sceptical of it.

He embraced a hooded splinter smock that everyone, including me viewed with a great deal of doubt.

Of course there was the non textbook, SS Wrap discussion, which after rereading a large part of it, was less about whether it was original or not vs the issue of double standards, secrecy etc.

But yes the SS wrap will be used against him, just like everyone elses words are used against them when they take a position that seems to contradict a past position or when needed to question a persons credentials. By his own words MR Singer has said hes not infallible, so dragging up the SS wrap, doesn't really add anything to the discussion. I dare say if we took a poll on the SS wrap it would fare better as being original, then the Pz PI wrap does.

And yes please don't add a discussion of the LW wrap into this thread.

Regards Jim

"my SOLE reason for giving my Opinion on any of these threads, to TRY to help someone from making what might be a costly mistake.

And not to sound high-hatted, but I don’t give a camel’s hump if people put any validity into what I might say (As has been pointed out any number of times, three in this thread alone #113, #486 & #489, please do reference "my" SS officer's wraparound thread as proof of what little I know http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=226970 ).

B. N. Singer