Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[Leroy]

Yes, and you and Dietrich may very well be correct that full disclosure IS the best way to proceed. I know that people get irritated, and perhaps righty so, when the list of defects/errors is not produced upon request. Imagine the frustration of those that could respond but feel compelled to restrain themselves, for fear of damaging the hobby further.

Mike - I'm not sure, myself, at times, but, in the end, I always seem to come down on the side of making the fakers work harder (and it does make them work harder, and spend more of their profit margin).

[phild]

Maybe I'm guilty of being one of the "spoon feeders" for the fakers....but I certainly don't think so. I see there being a big difference in pointing out problem areas and laying out the specs for how to correct them or what exactly is right...and of course that would be what is right in my mind because I know that others may have different experiences and comfort levels.

I like to meet the collector who applies the exact same criteria and standards today that they did say 10 years ago or even one year ago to every item and aspect of that item......if they do they have stopped learning. Collector knowledge is a moving target, but I am not saying that being original or not is a moving target!

[derka]

Another black lining of Heer wrap for comparizon :



derka

[djpool]

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to remain silent

I agree with those that believe knowledge is power. Yes the fakers are reading posts on the forum and folks like Glenn, Bryon, Willi etc are always aiding their cause by posting original items for them to look at, to include stamps. Dealer sites post some awesome pictures in very high quality and forums like these verify whether the dealer is selling good or bad items. No reason for a faker to reproduce items condemned by the collecting community.

The crook looking at this thread can only be encouraged. Hes assured that at least 66% of the collecting community remains potential customers and that the other 33% will remain silent to protect their interests.

The "its good" or "its bad" approach doesn't work. People actually want to know whats wrong with their item. Maybe we can elect a Supreme Council of 5 members to bless items in each particular forum. The Council votes and thats the way it is no reasons, no explanations. That would be a fun election!

I agree with Mike you hit them and you hit them hard and hit them often. Hurt them where it hurts in their wallets. Remember the problems the Jahnke tunics caused, the French/Czech HBT wraps, Czech HBT Camo, etc. Just a few years ago we'd get two or three posts a week highlighting one of thes fakes. Now you hardly see them. Why-they have been exposed with details. Its been over a decade since the fake splinter smocks, HBT wraps entered the market. They are still the best on the market. It costs money to make a large run like these did. You have to make your costs back quickily before the collectors figure them out. The sooner they are exposed the better. The PZ PI wraps and their cousins have obviousily been around for a while. Personally if I can save someone $10, 000 then I don't have a issue with providing a few facts to help them make an informed decision.

Also remember that dealers need a dedicated base. Nothing pisses off collectors when dealers sell them fakes even if its unintentional. Knowingly selling fakes is the kiss of death.

wr Jim
<TABLE class=tborder border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD class=tcat colSpan=4>View Poll Results: Pz Pio Wrapper </TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 width="75%">Original </TD><TD class=alt2 noWrap> </TD><TD class=alt1 title=Votes width="12%" noWrap align=center>32</TD><TD class=alt2 width="13%" noWrap align=right>30.48%</TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 width="75%">Not Sure </TD><TD class=alt2 noWrap> </TD><TD class=alt1 title=Votes width="12%" noWrap align=center>36</TD><TD class=alt2 width="13%" noWrap align=right>34.29%</TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 width="75%">Reproduction </TD><TD class=alt2 noWrap> </TD><TD class=alt1 title=Votes width="12%" noWrap align=center>37</TD><TD class=alt2 width="13%" noWrap align=right>35.24%</TD></TR><TR><TD class=tfoot colSpan=4 align=center>Voters: 105. You have already voted on this poll</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Mike - I'm not sure, myself, at times, but, in the end, I always seem to come down on the side of making the fakers work harder (and it does make them work harder, and spend more of their profit margin).

[Ohlau]

You can buy vintage paint .......no need to have it made

Vintage paint in shop doesn't mean made in "vintage" technology.

First test - and after we can talking about results.


There are many shops with "vintage" Whiskey - "vintage" from paper label....

[airborne_steve]

Derka,

I posted that thread a long time ago. I'll have to look and see if I still have any pictures related to the linked thread you provided. I have a feeling I posted it directly from a dealer website so I doubt that I have pictures remaining but you never know.

Steve

Steve, did you keep pics of this one ?

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...hlight=gd+wrap

derka

[Richard P]

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to remain silent

I agree with those that believe knowledge is power.

The "its good" or "its bad" approach doesn't work. People actually want to know whats wrong with their item. Maybe we can elect a Supreme Council of 5 members to bless items in each particular forum.

Jim,

I hate to be the one to inform you..but they already exist, they are friends, and have already elected themselves.

Richard

[Richard P]

Vintage paint in shop doesn't mean made in "vintage" technology.

First test - and after we can talking about results.


There are many shops with "vintage" Whiskey - "vintage" from paper label....

All it will take is a thumbs down from the Supreme Council, and all your costly test results go out the window, because vintage materials are for sale in warehouses all over Europe, if you know where to look.

Richard

[Richard P]

If anyone thinks rubber stamps can be made off the photos we post of maker marks, what is the scale they use to figure out the exact size of the fonts? If there is no scale or anything to scale off of in the photos, it is a total crap shoot. A guess at best.

I know, don't confuse us with facts.

Richard

[Willi Z.]

So far, the general thrust here seems to be to avoid the "high-end" pieces which seem to afford fakers with their highest profit margins. It has been noted that while "a few babies might be thrown out with the bath water", that is the price you must pay, in terms of skepticism, to sleep well at night. I have to wonder if that approach is really the best for this hobby, or if we can do better.

Leroy, I don't recall anyone stating to avoid the "high-end" items. I just think a potential buyer should exercise much more caution when considering such a piece, and walking away when some indicators of risk are present. Even if that means throwing a "baby out with the bath water". This is the way it is in most areas of collecting. An advanced FJ helmet collector is truly going to give it some thought when buying a DD FJ helmet, or a camo with wire, etc. Personally, that comes with the terrority.

As others have said; we can do much better, and do, in most areas of WAF.

[djpool]

Of course they can. All they need to do is measure some original stamps and use the photos to replicate the fonts. They certainly don't sew a complete uniform from pictures on the net. At some point they have to handle a real item to make templates.

Will it be exact. Probably not, but how would we know from pics on the forum if the size is okay. All it has to do is look acceptable. We judge whether cloth looks wartime or not from pictures all the time, which is a more difficult call IMHO .

Stamps have been an issue on copies for decades. I'm not sure the ink, stamps, techniques of application, are as easy as we assume to overcome. Many of the uniform fakes are small operations with small runs, with limited finances. They bang out a few high dollar fakes, acceptable to pass initial scrutiny, sell them and move on to the next project.

If you study the stamps used on the questionable wraps you'll notice that the ink doesn't adhere evenly, which required excessive pressure in order to make an acceptable imprint. You can see on the picture below that there is a buildup of ink along the edges caused by excessive pressure. The wartime white ink rolls on evenly and doesn't require excessive pressure. Even the most lightly stamped wartime item using white ink can be seen distinctly when converted to a photo negative. Can this technique be used to evaluate all fake stamps. No. It probably will only work on stamps used by this faker. I also don't think he can thin out his ink to roll more smoothly because I believe it will smear.

Jim


Jim

If anyone thinks rubber stamps can be made off the photos we post of maker marks, what is the scale they use to figure out the exact size of the fonts? If there is no scale or anything to scale off of in the photos, it is a total crap shoot. A guess at best.

I know, don't confuse us with facts.

Richard

[Willi Z.]

Jim,

I hate to be the one to inform you..but they already exist, they are friends, and have already elected themselves.

Richard

Since you always seem to infer there is some sort of secret "ring wearing" brotherhood with a special handshake, ask yourself why certain people are moderators and why they tend to agree with each other. Do you think we are all married to each other's sisters? Most have met through the forum or at shows. Same goes for many collectors here who live 1000's of miles apart. What do you think the common thread is?

[djpool]

I don't really agree with this characterization. Are there cliques. Probably. Is it an us against them sorta relationship. Not really. The WAF is pretty free form and I think we all feel to post our opinions (as long as they don't degenerate into personal attacks). People tend to gravitate to other folks who share the same opinions,etc. I believe thats all thats going on. Do some folks try to strong arm others, maybe but thats life. Like I said earlier "I survived High School, I can handle the WAF." IF I feel I can't at least I can choose to quit the WAF. Didn't have much say in school. Jim

Jim,

I hate to be the one to inform you..but they already exist, they are friends, and have already elected themselves.

Richard

[kammo man]

Jim ,
Very nice post presenting facts.

Like I said at the VERY start of this thread ....the stamps appeared to be off ............to include some sort of artificial wear on the maker name.

These warps just dont seem to hold up to the 25 sacred points to look for.

owen

[N.C. Wyeth]

Funny!

I don't really agree with this characterization. Are there cliques. Probably. Is it an us against them sorta relationship. Not really. The WAF is pretty free form and I think we all feel to post our opinions (as long as they don't degenerate into personal attacks).