Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[djpool]

The activities of the depots were controlled by the General Army Office for clothing and by Section E of the Corp area administration which directed the actions of the Depots. They controlled the overall system and had visibility over all assets and could direct how the assets were distributed. The depots were responsible to manufacture, store and issue clothing etc. Damaged, captured, etc clothing was also sent to the depots for repair and issue. To support the actual supply of clothing to the field army numerous collection points, repair workshops, Army clothing dumps, branch dumps, consolidated ration/clothing dumps were established to facilitate the issue of clothing and equipment to the soldier. The forward dumps could have stocked clothing from numerous depots. Clothing Processing Centers were mentioned as clothing centers that reinforcements requiring refitting were routed through before departure to the front. I believe that advance units of the DAK were routed through such centers in Baumholder and elsewhere before their departure to Afrika. The fact that many of the initial Tropical uniforms had a Berlin stamp and that the 5th Panzer Regiment(5th Light Division) happened to be a Berlin based unit is purely coincidence. The General Army Office for clothing was based in Berlin and it was probably just easier to coordinate with the Depot In Berlin. The 15TH Panzer which arrived two months later was mostly from west and SW Germany.I suspect most of the clothing was manufactured in and around Berlin.


Uniforms with a Stettin stamp are actually fairly common. I own one Assault Gun Wrap and 2 black wraps with the St. stamp. Look at some of the Divisions Affiliated with Wkr.II:
12 Pz, 32 (Poland, Fr, East and West fronts), 59 (West Front 44), 75 France 40, East, Poland, Czech), 122 (East & Finland), 152 Rep, 162 (East, Italy), 192 Rep, 207 Sec, 242(west), 258 (east), 274(norway), 281 Sec, 292(east), 302(Germany, france, east), 347(west), 353(west), 402 Rep, 549 VG(E. Prussia/N. Ger), 550 VG, 551 VG, 570 VG, 572 VG, 702.

As many East front as west front divisions. One of my Black Wraps came from a U.S. Army Intell NCO and another came from the family in West Germany.

Jim

Who were Lago-Stettin and where did all the uniform items that they made go ??? My feeling is that they went east because Lago-Stettin was part of "Wehrkreis II. To explain what I mean, lets consider the 12 Panzer-Div. which was raised and based in Stettin. From 1941 it fought only on the Russian Front, ending up in 1945 in Kurland. It is likely that this division would have received uniforms manufactured by firms in Wehrkreis II, which was located in Stettin.

I surmise that it was general practice for units raised in one area to obtain uniforms in the first instance manufactured within that Wehrkreis. This was the case with units outfitted with tropical uniforms and sent to Afrika in 1941. Hence, if I am right then 12th Pz-Div would have been outfitted with uniforms made in Stettin and other towns/ cities in Wehrkreis II. The same would also apply to the 14th Pz-Div, located in Dresden, Wehrkreis IV which the 13 Pz.Pi. Abt. belonged.

[JOHN JONES]

No poll opinion from me, I was scared of these
things 25 years ago, so I switched to the Vietnam war stuff.

Bought this school footy boot bag for my lad 10 years ago,
'what can be made then - can be made now ' I see someome
quoted.

John.

[JOHN JONES]

2.

[derka]

OSS - I didn't intentionally "neglect" anything. You are entirely correct about piped collars - yet we occasionally see them on pieces produced after September, 1939. Again, a point of "concern", but proof of nothing. I fully understand and appreciate, and accept, that, as points of "concern" mount, the liklihood of purchase by a collector decreases. My point was that (and you have touched on this) the liklihood of a wrapper such as the one which started this thread being a straight and 'standard' issue piece, and thus capable of being judged only from photographs and from the current state of "proved" knowledge in the collector community, with absolute confidence, would be slim. I have no problem with anyone deciding not to buy this wrap, nor, however, would I have a problem with someone (but only after they have actually and carefully looked at the wrap "in hand") making the decision to buy it.

The only "proof" of anything I have seen in this thread is that there actually was a maker of the name and location stamped in the wrap.

Leroy,
I would rather agree with your 6 points, althought very difficult to estimate the number of Heer black wraps of all kinds made during the conflict.
About the "perfect proof" versus "points of concern" concerning authenticity of this spiess wrap, it is another question.
If you look into this forum archives theads relatives to Heer black wraps, my feeling is that there are not many which are realy discussed about strictly their authenticity; in most case there is a relative agreement on this specific point.
Materias used, coherence in manufacturing and skill, seewing methods, threads are pilars of each one's scrutinity.
The question wich raise more often is "are insignias original too and period applied to this wrap ?", and there you can have endless debates like the one in this thread.
It means (at least foe me) that the "zone of comfort" about black Heer wraps shared by a majority of collectors exist, and i'm not talking about "textbook only " believers, but of consensus despite different philosophies of collecting.
The black lined ones are among the most controversial wraps, with the private tailored/non regular issue/modified ones, as there are less often seen, and this is not surprising.
Stamps are always one of the key points observed, because they realy have often a lot to tell us, acording our own individual experience and level of knowledge.
And if you add rare insignias, like b&w piping, for wich no period pics of use even exist as OSS already pointed , than you have all ingredients for nice controversies expressed with courtesy in best cases, or childish battles of egos in worst cases.
It is not a question of sharing or not informations, neither of irrefutable evidence.

Jim, nice work as usual about supplies system.
This link deserves to be read too :

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/ch6sec2.html

derka

[Leroy]

Derka - I think we are really in basic agreement. There is "collector consensus" at play here, and that consensus can be very important to some. "Perfect proof" (and, by the way, I never said "perfect") is something like the telephone directories showing the manufacturer to be in business in that town in 1941 and 1942. That's not proof for sure that this company actually made the wrap, but it is at least proof that this previously obscure company did exist. In this thread, no one has "proved" that the materials used in the wrap, or the wrap's basic construction techniques, were simply not used during the period. Indeed, even Bryon has said "Technically the example is Very Well executed from a manufacturer's standpoint." So what has actually been proven is not that the wrap is actually a fake, but only that, at least to some collectors (see the "Poll") a sufficient number of "concerns" (whether or not those "concerns" can be themselves proven as being 100% reliable) have been raised for them, at least, to confidently declare the wrap a "slam dunk" or "from the ground up" fake. Others, apparently, are not so swayed by the "concerns" and are confident the wrap is real. I personally have not voted in the poll, but I'm leaning to "not sure", as opposed to either "fake" or "real".

[Richard P]

Leroy you neglect to mention on your checklist that while piped collars were officially discontinued before the war, this one not only has one but with piping not seen until the mid-war period. I personally do not believe a piped Pz. Pion. wrapper was ever contracted by the Heeres Bekleidungsamt, as only a very small percentage of Pz. Pion. Bataillons were authorized to wear the black combination (only those personnel who served in enclosed fighting vehicles). There were Medical Doctors serving in Panzer regiments with their own tanks (with the Caduceus painted on the turret) yet I would greet with equal suspicion a blue piped Panzer wrapper. Perhaps that will be coming next.

I don't recall anyone saying they thought a piped collar pioneer wrap was ever contracted by the Heeres Bekleidungsamt.

My personal feeling is that if an original exists, it was ordered by the individual specifically at his request, skipping any depot action. Why is it so hard for some to get it into their head that someone could walk into a uniform shop and order a uniform to their requirements?

Richard

[Richard P]

No poll opinion from me, I was scared of these
things 25 years ago, so I switched to the Vietnam war stuff.

Bought this school footy boot bag for my lad 10 years ago,
'what can be made then - can be made now ' I see someome
quoted.

John.

John,

Sorry, this is not even close to pz pioneer piping. TR era piping has a tail on it. That is why it is not seen on side caps. The tail has to be sandwiched between two layers of cloth...or leave the tail exposed.

Like on this original M 44 pz pioneer board.

Richard

[Richard P]

Richard,

Some perfectly original wraps don't have any depot mark and date, just size indications and maker indications (clear id or rbnr).
So lack of depot mark into a wrap can't be considered as an absolute red flag by itself.
IMHO, this is not the main concern with markings into this spiess pzpioniere wrap.
derka

Hello derka,

I know this well and say it often. I am not the one who shoots down wraps that aren't depot marked. It does not even arouse my curiosity if one isn't present, as I have seen many without. Most of the fakes HAVE depot marks.

I have no problems with the markings in this wrap as I stated in my other post. I think the markings are a positive thing here...just like I did on the CG HG wrapper.

Richard

[naxos]

... someone could walk into a uniform shop and order a uniform to their requirements?

Richard

That is correct - and to elaborate on that; To save on cost of a ground-up custom fitted uniform an Officer or NCO could buy an already made, off the rack uniform in a standard size and have it custom finished at the shop. Wouldn't a such bought tunic have the size markings in it?

.

[kammo man]

I love reading the break downs in this thread .

Better than Game of thrones .

owen

[Johnny R]

That is correct - and to elaborate on that; To save on cost of a ground-up custom fitted uniform an Officer or NCO could buy an already made, off the rack uniform in a standard size and have it custom finished at the shop. Wouldn't a such bought tunic have the size markings in it?

.

Member Galazian41? has a TSD M44 in Italian gabardine that I think shows a size range for fitting on a tailor tag and it was altered to a snug fit off the shelf. I cannot remember if it was a size range or how the stamp read.

[John Pic]

Its is kinda like Game of Throne's isn't it ? One side poses question's and the other side avoid's answering them directly...one side attempt's digging into the past and researching..the other just shoots flaming arrow's into the wagon's. I can't wait til the climax. I voted not sure because, well I am sure there are super fakes...luckily on SS uniform's insignias are very helpful in making a determination.

[Willi Z.]

Its is kinda like Game of Throne's isn't it ? One side poses question's and the other side avoid's answering them directly...one side attempt's digging into the past and researching..the other just shoots flaming arrow's into the wagon's. I can't wait til the climax. I voted not sure because, well I am sure there are super fakes...luckily on SS uniform's insignias are very helpful in making a determination.

Indeed. There is agenda in play here. And you are correct regarding SS insignia and most of the other threads on this forum (we now have over 350,000). There is indeed a determination on most. Only the sexy Panzer wrap threads seem to go this way. Don't expect a climax. This will never end. Confusion is the goal.

[OSS]

This "special order" angle is the apologists dream phrase, the catchall for any doubts one may have concerning any suspicious looking garment. Any of the questions one might have about the tunic, the black lining, the mid-war piping ( yet no RBNr.), stampings on the pocket, shoddy Spiess rings, late-war eagle application, the piped collar, and what have you...all explained by the "special order" status. On top of that, the size markings, which would seem to indicate contract production...you guessed it: "special order" on standard production.

[Bob Hritz]

I certainly am not qualified to give an opinion of the subject tunic, but I have now and owned many more clearly modified, altered, shortened, green collar added, pocket pleat added, collar piping added and taken in for better fit tunics, both Heer and SS.

When and where these modifications took place is not as important as that they took place during the original period.

I guess that modifications are relatively common and were whatever commanders tolerated or how much a soldier could'afford.

As one former German soldier once told me: "When the Russians were 500 meters away, fashion is not of paramount importance. When going on leave, fashion is very important, especially when returning to your home town"

Bob Hritz