Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[B. N. Singer]

Yes, he was...

Mr Sewingmachine

And RK winner as well I believe.

B. N. Singer

[Ohlau]

Well, you may not belive, but i know a private taylor in my city who still works on "Singer" sewingmachine...

Btw. How about a private ordered wraps with black liner before 1944 ?

[derka]

Nice search and realy interesting find Naxos, would you précise your reference for this information ?

As a sidenote, i agree that Wohlgemuth is not necessarily the name of a jewish person :

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...ght=Wohlgemuth

Otherwise, i am curious to know if tk's on the pzpio wrap were applied throught the colar, even if no pics of the reverse area can be avaible ?
And if so, how many prongs and wich kind (flat, rounded, sharp at the end, etc...) ?

derka

[Fritz]

Mr. Singer,

In Mike Beavers three Volume series on SS uniforms he also states that the use of black liners on SS wraps was a late war practice. He didn't give the years but I'm assuming by late war he meant 1944-45.

Jim

Not that I consider myself an expert (or anything near that), but his book is in regard to ss wrappers and they (the books), although they are very good books, are not perfect and fakes/"put-togethers" as well as wrong information is enclosed there as well.



What I want to say, as has been said here before: Those that want an opinion, use all the information available and form your own opinion. Don't blindly listen to Mike Beaver, Byron Singer, Hasse M, me or anyone else.

Cheers

[Fritz]

And RK winner as well I believe.

B. N. Singer

I assume you are neither related to the sewing machine fabricant nor to the RK winner? What a disappointment!

[B. N. Singer]

I assume you are neither related to the sewing machine fabricant nor to the RK winner? What a disappointment!

I agree Fritz; either would have been great by me!

B. N. singer

Although truth be told, I did have two distant cousins in the W-SS (No joke there).

[Michael Kuligowski]

Between ww1 and ww2 many germans left the city (from ca. 60,000 down to ca. 6,000). Just within a few years (1923) the number went down to ca. 10,000.

After the german side won the polish campaign many poles left the city (or were forced to do so) and tens of thousands ethnic germans were located.

So from late 1939 the ethnic makeup changed again tremendously towards a germanisation.


Cheers

Agree !
I just found a book of business addresses in Poznan in 1938 and there is no taylor with this name. I looked before the war assuming that it could be Jewish business name from before the war.

it looks like it was a new business that came after Posen was annexed by germany

Naxos - where did You find that information about this business ?

[Langemark]

I just noticed and compared the "doubts" here but not there :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=226970

If you don't have the courage to read that long ... very long ... utmost long thread, jump to page 11:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...226970&page=11

Seriously ?

Best,
Mark

[djpool]

Hi Fritz,

I have no dog in this fight except to learn and to learn you go to folks that have some experience in the area being discussed. I've been collecting on and off since the mid 1970s and over that period have actually seen or held exactly "zero" wraps with a black liner. My experience with wraps is probably nil compared to folks like Mr Singer, the late M. Beaver, M. Davis, Bob Edwards, Mike Pruett etc. So I looked it all the info I could find studied pictures of blessed wraps and offered my opinion. But I have owned a few wraps over the years and take comfort in researching such mundane topics as depot stamps, manufacturers etc. I'm no cheerleader for anybody on this forum and have had discussions that support or were counter to what many of these gentleman believe. But no matter what our positions, personal attacks are unwarranted and serve no purpose. Fritz this is not directed at you, your post is well taken.

Not that I consider myself an expert (or anything near that), but his book is in regard to ss wrappers and they (the books), although they are very good books, are not perfect and fakes/"put-togethers" as well as wrong information is enclosed there as well.



What I want to say, as has been said here before: Those that want an opinion, use all the information available and form your own opinion. Don't blindly listen to Mike Beaver, Byron Singer, Hasse M, me or anyone else.

Cheers

[OSS]

My sincere compliments to djpool for his dogged research and sound reasoning IMHO. The information is out there to anyone willing to put in the time and effort to tell good from bad in any area of collecting. It can be a costly mistake to put your trust in a "reputable" dealer, many of whom have gone over to the "dark side", that is: their ethics have been corrupted by greed. Do your homework and gleen as much information as you can from anyone you feel is knowledgeable, be it wrappers, vintage cars, oil paintings or what have you.
Be your own "expert".

[PANZERPIONIERE]

Richard to answer part of your statement. I did a survey of known original wraps taking data from the WAF (I searched the Heer uniform section using the word PANZER. Got 99 pages of threads and I checked 65 of them for blessed wraps with pictures of the liner. I also checked Wade Ks second book on Panzer uniforms, Collectors Guild, Virtual Gren (active and Archive), Oakleaf, Edwards site, Grenadier and found 83 original Heer Wraps. Of those I found 3 original wraps with Black liners. 2 were on Mike Davis site and I see he posted a new stamp. I found "1" wrap blessed on the WAF as original that has a black liner. I think Mikes wraps may skew the data because it looks like he was a black liner magnet. But 4 wraps out of 83 thats like 4.8%. Kinda screams rare to me.
Of the 4 wraps all were dated 1944. None of the 83 wraps I checked were marked Wohlgemuth.
Another observation while checking all the past threads was there is a very high proportion of fakes with black linings. I also checked a thread on Black liners and B.N. Singer commented : " I will offer an abridged answer -Typically a mouse gray cotton in earlier production pieces and later anything from that type color (usually in "artificial silk) to black (blk being atypical) IMHO.

Maybe atypical isn't the same as rare.

Also pulled out my Edwards/Pruett Panzer book and the 1993 edition didn't even mention black lining material in Section 1.3 . They might have corrected it the change document or discussed it somewhere else.

Will read through the rest of the comments and provide answers later.

I can remember SHEA selling (2) wraps with black linings in the last couple of years.

[djpool]

Hi Michael,

I believe it came from this site:

http://forum.ahnenforschung.net/arch...19603-p-2.html

When I searched the address I got the following results. Unfortunately I couldn't find the complete post .

1. Zufallsfunde [Archiv] - Seite 2 - Ahnenforschung.Net Forum<O></O>
forum.ahnenforschung.net › ... › Posen GenealogieCached - 3. Nov. 2010 – Jürgens, Erika - Berliner Str. 19, früher Riga, Herrenartikel. Kadner, Nikolai - Wilhelmstr. ..... Pfeiff, Alfred - An der Paulikirche 4, früher Riga, Schneiderei und Dampfbügelei. Passern, Eugen ...... Deutsche Maßschneiderein für Zivil und Uniform: ... Berliner Str. 20. Carl Wohlgemuth, Baerliner Str. 10 und 19 ...<O></O>

As I mentioned I "do not know if the Wohlgemuth in question is Jewish or not."

Here is another list from the website shown:

Deutsche Maßschneiderein für Zivil und Uniform:
Paul Ernstmeier, Carl-Hermann-Pirscher-Str. 1
Wilhelm Günther, Bäckerstr. 6
Erich Hauck, Tannenbergstr. 13
Johann Heusel, Saarlandstr. 36
Willy Keitel, Martinstr. 66/67
Erdmann Kuntze, Neue Str. 1
Johann Leinberg, Martinstr. 52/53
Gustav Lutz, Bismarckstr. 7
Alfred Pfeiff, An der Paulikirche 4
Max Podolski, Fischmarkt 4/5
Karl Popp, Berliner Str. 5
Karl Roehl, Rosenstr. 4
Jakob Rothweiler, Saarlandstr. 10
Johann Torster, Wilhelmstr. 3a
Hans Wincenty, Berliner Str. 20
Carl Wohlgemuth, Berliner Str. 10 und 19
Fritz Zielke, Martin-Str. 27


Jim

Agree !
I just found a book of business addresses in Poznan in 1938 and there is no taylor with this name. I looked before the war assuming that it could be Jewish business name from before the war.

it looks like it was a new business that came after Posen was annexed by germany

Naxos - where did You find that information about this business ?

[PANZERPIONIERE]

In the mid-1980s or so a well-known dealer from New Orleans was set up at an OVMS show. In a display case he had a 10 meter length of original Panzerpionier braided style piping as seen on this wrapper. It was wound around the mfg's flat cardboard spindle and he wanted $100 for it. Considerable money then and I certainly didn't buy it, but I did manage to beg a one inch sample. Somewhere out there it likely still exists today whether as a single piece or divided up....

Any black & silver, black & white, Black & pink (?), twisted together will work, what was for sale was by that seller was probably SA or SS twisted piping. All twist piping for Pz.Pi. was field done, it was NOT issue. So anything the guys could get there hands on would work. Some even just razored off the pink and used no waffenfarbe at all!
Steve

[naxos]

Naxos - where did You find that information about this business ?

Here is the Posen phone book entry from 1942

The tailor shop (Uniform-Lieferant = uniform supplier) was at Berliner Str. 10 - and his the private residence at Berliner Str.19 -

[Bob Hritz]

Hi Fritz,

I have no dog in this fight except to learn and to learn you go to folks that have some experience in the area being discussed. I've been collecting on and off since the mid 1970s and over that period have actually seen or held exactly "zero" wraps with a black liner. My experience with wraps is probably nil compared to folks like Mr Singer, the late M. Beaver, M. Davis, Bob Edwards, Mike Pruett etc. So I looked it all the info I could find studied pictures of blessed wraps and offered my opinion. But I have owned a few wraps over the years and take comfort in researching such mundane topics as depot stamps, manufacturers etc. I'm no cheerleader for anybody on this forum and have had discussions that support or were counter to what many of these gentleman believe. But no matter what our positions, personal attacks are unwarranted and serve no purpose. Fritz this is not directed at you, your post is well taken.

Hello Jim,

You actually handled one that I own. It is the late war signals tunic with applied soutache to the shape of collar tabs annd tailor applied yellow collar piping.

Bob Hritz