Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[jacquesf]

All I can add, is that if you are buying a wrapper or m43 cap , know your sh-t or know someone that knows his sh-t and pray that he really does know his sh-t. Confusing, yes just like buying a wrapper. Jacques

[djpool]

Richard to answer part of your statement. I did a survey of known original wraps taking data from the WAF (I searched the Heer uniform section using the word PANZER. Got 99 pages of threads and I checked 65 of them for blessed wraps with pictures of the liner. I also checked Wade Ks second book on Panzer uniforms, Collectors Guild, Virtual Gren (active and Archive), Oakleaf, Edwards site, Grenadier and found 83 original Heer Wraps. Of those I found 3 original wraps with Black liners. 2 were on Mike Davis site and I see he posted a new stamp. I found "1" wrap blessed on the WAF as original that has a black liner. I think Mikes wraps may skew the data because it looks like he was a black liner magnet. But 4 wraps out of 83 thats like 4.8%. Kinda screams rare to me.
Of the 4 wraps all were dated 1944. None of the 83 wraps I checked were marked Wohlgemuth.
Another observation while checking all the past threads was there is a very high proportion of fakes with black linings. I also checked a thread on Black liners and B.N. Singer commented : " I will offer an abridged answer -Typically a mouse gray cotton in earlier production pieces and later anything from that type color (usually in "artificial silk) to black (blk being atypical) IMHO.

Maybe atypical isn't the same as rare.

Also pulled out my Edwards/Pruett Panzer book and the 1993 edition didn't even mention black lining material in Section 1.3 . They might have corrected it the change document or discussed it somewhere else.

Will read through the rest of the comments and provide answers later.

Jim,

Who got to decide black linings are rare? I didn't get a vote, not anyone else I know either.

Richard

[kammo man]

As Derka lined up the stamps .....................
we can see some glaring differences.

Like I said before, the one in this wrap has been washed down........not naturally worn down.

Wraps seem to be big business ............some one went to a lot of trouble to make this wrap , and it seems like there was a nice little production line going with vintage fabric , which is easily found in Europe if one knows where to look.

Big business .......Big Egos seem to go hand in hand here .

[B. N. Singer]

... I did a survey... Of the 4 wraps all were dated 1944.

Good for you Jim, as IMHO, the time frame of mfg is important when considering a black lining in a wraparound.

B. N. Singer

[pauke]

piping

In the mid-1980s or so a well-known dealer from New Orleans was set up at an OVMS show. In a display case he had a 10 meter length of original Panzerpionier braided style piping as seen on this wrapper. It was wound around the mfg's flat cardboard spindle and he wanted $100 for it. Considerable money then and I certainly didn't buy it, but I did manage to beg a one inch sample. Somewhere out there it likely still exists today whether as a single piece or divided up....

[derka]

Reading again the 2 threads about this wrap, i thought that those who had the oportunity to have it in hands for close scrutinization have a real advantage comparing with those, like me, who can only observe avaible pics of this wrap, open their eyes, question their memory and their files, and try to use their brain.
It seems PvL. and Hasse.M don't wish anymore to dscuss of the wrap, i have no comments about their decision, except "too bad".
I also don't care about wich UK dealer sold it about 12 years ago.
But i was wondering if the "two well known knowledgable US panzer collectors, both having posted in [the other] thread." who, acording PvL's words (#146) have owned this pzpio wrap in the past, could help us in this debate, considering they "touched" this wrap ?
I ask because they could "defend" it as they are experienced and knowledgeable in this area, and -i suppose- they certainly sold it as original.

derka

[naxos]

In 1940 - there is a tailor shop listed in the city of Posen as:

Maßschneiderei für Zivil und Uniform Carl Wohlgemuth, Berliner Str. 10 und 19


Here is a Postcard of Posen showing the Berliner Straße

[Johnny R]

In 1940 - there is a tailor shop listed in the city of Posen as:

Maßschneiderei für Zivil und Uniform Carl Wohlgemuth, Berliner Str. 10 und 19


Here is a Postcard of Posen showing the Berliner Straße

Nice find! Maßschneiderei translate to custom tailor-

[Michael Kuligowski]

I am the last to post here a judgement about this tunic, but I was digging for last 2 hours in online library of Poznan:

http://www.wbc.poznan.pl

now the only thing I'v found so far is address book from 1923 and there is no
Wohlgemuth at all.... its not a proof of anything but I will try to look for more recent entries - 30's and 40's hopefully

hope I can trace great find by Naxos !! Good Job man !!!

[Fritz]

now the only thing I'v found so far is address book from 1923 and there is no
Wohlgemuth at all....

Between ww1 and ww2 many germans left the city (from ca. 60,000 down to ca. 6,000). Just within a few years (1923) the number went down to ca. 10,000.

After the german side won the polish campaign many poles left the city (or were forced to do so) and tens of thousands ethnic germans were located.

So from late 1939 the ethnic makeup changed again tremendously towards a germanisation.


Cheers

[Fritz]

And Wohlgemuth is not necessarily the name of a jewish person. It may be a "jewish name" but that doesn't mean the person is jewish. We can probably agree on that the name "Simon" may sound "jewish" to some, now to those that are interested go and google a guy named Max Simon.

I know a Wohlgemuth (I wouldn't hold my breath on that he is related though) and he is as jewish as a pork cutlet.

[Zauberflöte]

Richard to answer part of your statement. .... But 4 wraps out of 83 thats like 4.8%. Kinda screams rare to me.
Of the 4 wraps all were dated 1944. None of the 83 wraps I checked were marked Wohlgemuth.
Another observation while checking all the past threads was there is a very high proportion of fakes with black linings. I also checked a thread on Black liners and B.N. Singer commented : " I will offer an abridged answer -Typically a mouse gray cotton in earlier production pieces and later anything from that type color (usually in "artificial silk) to black (blk being atypical) IMHO.

Maybe atypical isn't the same as rare.

.....(.)

.

At least here is one I feel confident enough to add to the list of original black lined wraps (please excuse the minor quality of the photo).

There are no visible markings of any sort left since they have probably all worn/washed away. The wrap is period shortened and shows medium to heavy wear through out.
I would date the wrap mid to late-war.

[Ohlau]

Singer was that not a Jewish manufacturer of sewingmachines??

Yes, he was...



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Mr Sewingmachine

[djpool]

Mr. Singer,

In Mike Beavers three Volume series on SS uniforms he also states that the use of black liners on SS wraps was a late war practice. He didn't give the years but I'm assuming by late war he meant 1944-45.

The Pz Pi wrap is a early second model wrap which after 1940 were not supposed to be piped, at least those issued from the depot system. I thought that the twist cord was used until late 43 when the fleck tarn piping replaced it. The wrap is stamped like it was made to conform to depot standards, despite the lack of a depot stamp. To me the early features and late war lining materials do not make sense. Pz PI Steve is obviousily more of an expert then most of us. I would love to hear his comments.


Jim

Good for you Jim, as IMHO, the time frame of mfg is important when considering a black lining in a wraparound.

B. N. Singer

[B. N. Singer]

Mr. Singer,

In Mike Beavers three Volume series on SS uniforms he also states that the use of black liners on SS wraps was a late war practice. He didn't give the years but I'm assuming by late war he meant 1944-45.

Jim

Jim, I cannot advise you on specifics, but I have not seen an example that I thought to be original manufactured before 44. And here I speak only for Heer jackets Jim, not W-SS.

Regards,
B. N. Singer