Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[John Pic]

Thanks Richard I do remember the one he picked up as he always does..out of the woodwork. Just like the General Dr. Hans Mundt's lightweight field tunic found rolled up in the corner of a footlocker.

[Drew Wright]

Bryon,

Therein lies the problem. You call it a ground up FAKE...and simply walk away. Of course you won't explain, perhaps you can't? You have just destroyed the value, to those that listen to you, of someone's property you don't even know. He doesn't have bad expert insurance to guard against such things. No one does. Who is to say who is well versed...you?

If he is happy in his ignorance, if that is what it is, why do you insist on commenting? Comment to those who know you and come and ask, and to those who you will answer...privately.

If you are truly happy with your collection....why will you allow no one else to be? Why try to humiliate someone? You call my items fantasy from one or two photos. I know your wrong, so I don't care, because I can prove my contentions.

How about Leroy's HG wrap...which you almost got destroyed from what it originally was. You totally blew that one no matter what you and Ramsey claim. You are not omniscient, and cannot judge with some super power. What happened on your SS wrap? Now we are to blindly accept your humble opinion after that debacle?

I take a lot of time with these things and greatly resent being told it is fake from one photo taken from a distance. I hate telling people their wraps are bad. You execute that judgement from your keyboard with four words.

Back up your contentions...or stop giving them. How about doing something for the good of many...not just a few friends? Let your conscience decide whether to keep destroying peoples stuff worldwide.

You could always P.M. them, and at least save their humiliation on the web. Many are not English speakers and have a hard time communicating what they mean perfectly with us.

Richard

Excellent post, Richard.

Regards,

Drew

[Richard P]

I have followed this new thread with great interest as it has many aspects which are entertaining, much like a legal proceeding where the defense presents a case in order to depict their client in the best possible light, along with expert testimony while the prosecution attempts to condemn a dangerous character for the welfare of the public.

I find myself squarely behind the prosecution and I believe the crime may well be fraud. I believe there are collectors who have been victimized, who have invested large sums of money in the sincere belief that they are buying a rare artifact. The more I hear in support of the subject wrapper (the Defendant), the less I like it; I particularly enjoyed the "Jewish" contracters who only make uniforms for elite or obscure units. There are so many details wrong with this tunic it is hard to know where to begin but it sounds like we have only seen the "tip of the iceberg".

Since you hardly know where to begin...at least this one wasn't finished by souvenir hungry GI's on the assembly line...or was it? Nobody said anything for sure...just putting out some possibilities. I remember dozens of them from you with no basis in fact on the CG HG wrap threads.

Just dive in...we are all here to sit at the masters feet, and I for one would be happy to see even the tip of the iceberg. We wait.

Richard

[90th Light]

I particularly enjoyed the "Jewish" contracters who only make uniforms for elite or obscure units.

They were not allowed the large or mass orders by law. Any order over a certain size had to go to a suitable German or Austrian manufacturer. Thus the "Jewish" contractors had to specialise in small or high quality orders and were renowed for their exceptional workmanship. Some German or Austrian manufacturers sub-contracted some of the work or fiddly orders to them,

Chris

[Richard P]

Thanks Richard I do remember the one he picked up as he always does..out of the woodwork. Just like the General Dr. Hans Mundt's lightweight field tunic found rolled up in the corner of a footlocker.

John,

I have had 3 SS stug wraps from that same maker, and they are very early and super high quality. These were made by Jewish seamstresses at Ravensbruck when it first started churning out armored uniforms. They are all considered fake by the group...providence be damned, they know better.

Richard

[Peter v L]

Since Hasse will not bring the wrapper to me today, I will have no more photos to show or any more comments to make.

Here you had the chance to disect this one into pieces and show it was a bad one if you belived that, or a good one if you belived that, but as usual you could just not keep the fingers from the trigger just for a couple days to have a civil conversation and to really educate collectors what is wrong or not.

Specially you who are sure it is bad really had the chance to show so.
Seems like you doubters are allways in a hurry though to tell your opinion without any facts or without any discussion though.

It is the collectors loss.

I am signing of this thread now

Peter v L

[B. N. Singer]

Bryon,

Therein lies the problem. You call it a ground up FAKE...and simply walk away. Of course you won't explain, perhaps you can't? You have just destroyed the value, to those that listen to you, of someone's property you don't even know. He doesn't have bad expert insurance to guard against such things. No one does. Who is to say who is well versed...you?

If he is happy in his ignorance, if that is what it is, why do you insist on commenting? Comment to those who know you and come and ask, and to those who you will answer...privately.

If you are truly happy with your collection....why will you allow no one else to be? Why try to humiliate someone? You call my items fantasy from one or two photos. I know your wrong, so I don't care, because I can prove my contentions.

How about Leroy's HG wrap...which you almost got destroyed from what it originally was. You totally blew that one no matter what you and Ramsey claim. You are not omniscient, and cannot judge with some super power. What happened on your SS wrap? Now we are to blindly accept your humble opinion after that debacle?

I take a lot of time with these things and greatly resent being told it is fake from one photo taken from a distance. I hate telling people their wraps are bad. You execute that judgement from your keyboard with four words.

Back up your contentions...or stop giving them. How about doing something for the good of many...not just a few friends? Let your conscience decide whether to keep destroying peoples stuff worldwide.

You could always P.M. them, and at least save their humiliation on the web. Many are not English speakers and have a hard time communicating what they mean perfectly with us.

Richard

Regardless of your feelings Sir, or how others might be in disagreement with my lack of details (some of which Glenn has already touched on), I reiterate, IMHO the said garment is a ground up FAKE.

Further, I take exception to your insinuating that I intentionally destroy people’s items, as if it were some mere whim or game. In the vast majority of instances, when I tender a negative comment in reference to an item there is scant there to destroy.

People, without clue, propelling themselves as knowledgeable, have always been a negative influence to this hobby; and now, with the popularity of sites like this, that danger is ever the more great.

However, at the end of the day this is a free forum and people must sort the chafe from the grain as they choose.

B. N. Singer

[derka]

First I'm not making any comment as to originality of either wrap. However we have these wraps manufactured and decked out to 2 of the rarest and most desirable units in the German army. Coincidence? They are both lined in black which is fairly rare. Coincidence? Neither one is Depot stamped and the arguement for the lack of stamps is because they were commercially made. Coincidence? The truth is sometimes items got into the Depot system without being Depot stamped. The stamps on both wraps appear to be identical except they changed the order and location. Coincidence? Most commercially manufactured/PRIVATE PURCHASE clothing is not stamped in this manner. It was made to fit the wearer why size it? I think it was a requirement from the contracting agency. I've handled a lot of tailored tunics over the years and I have never seen a private purchase piece stamped like this.

I can't talk to all the fine points of sewing etc like Bryon, Glenn can but I have a strong belief the stamp is bogus and that the manufacturer wasn't in business by mid war.

Jim

Very interesting Jim, i suscribe mostly to your point of wiew and conclusion about bogus stamp.
But for comparizon about those stamps of a same maker :

- The whole markings

On Pzpio wrap :



On GD wrap :



- Maker stamp

On Pzpio wrap :



On GD wrap :



- Size indications font

On Pzpio wrap :







On GD wrap :







Stamps are close, but not exactly identical IMO.

And few other stamps on black lined wraps :

#1



#2



#3



#4



#5



#6



Now, i let wiewers choose beetwen those they like or not.

derka

[John Pic]

The "3" in the first wrapper is flat on top the rest are all rounded.Just sayin...

[OSS]

...at least this one wasn't finished by souvenir hungry GI's on the assembly line...or was it? Nobody said anything for sure...just putting out some possibilities. I remember dozens of them from you with no basis in fact on the CG HG wrap threads.


Richard

No sir this, like the CG wrap, is, as others have said here, a complete fake made in the not too distant past. (You attempt to confuse the issue again with the "LeRoy" wrapper, which was essentially a period piece). Again, I only wish the "Uniforms" Forum could be as honest as the other forums (like the Headgear and Medals Forums) where reproductions are routinely savaged and the contributers there seem to relish exposing well made and convincing fakes. Here, it seems there is an army of defenders for the most outrageous forgeries. I can't decide whether the most passionate defenders are hapless victims, hoping against hope that they haven't been defrauded, or perhaps have some financial stake in the industry itself.

[Ohlau]

or perhaps have some financial interest in the industry itself

In another words some of experts are also fakers and defends his fakes for big money ?

So there will be no discussion....what a dissapointment

[Sammler]

No sir this, like the CG wrap, is as others have said here, a complete fake made in the not too distant past. (You attempt to confuse the issue again with the "LeRoy" wrapper, which was essentially a period piece). Again, I only wish the "Uniforms" Forum could be as honest as the other forums (like the Headgear and Medals Forums) where reproductions are routinely savaged and the contributers there seem to relish exposing well made and convincing fakes. Here, it seems there is an army of defenders for the most outrageous forgeries. I can't decide whether the most passionate defenders are hapless victims, hoping against hope that they haven't been defrauded, or perhaps have some financial interest in the industry itself.

Not yours in particular OSS, the whole debate IMHO.

"Conjecture"

The formation of judgments or opinions on the basis of incomplete or inconclusive information


Badges e.g. the heer badge forum does not compare. In many cases Vast numbers were made with identical characteristics for some examples giving them a very large database.

Please show me something other then GD or PZ PI examples for this maker and maybe there would be a case/ better discussion?

[Zauberflöte]

...

Here you had the chance to disect this one into pieces and show it was a bad one if you belived that, or a good one if you belived that, but as usual you could just not keep the fingers from the trigger just for a couple days to have a civil conversation and to really educate collectors what is wrong or not.

.....

It is the collectors loss.

.....

Peter v L

Disappointing. I have to subscribe that this could have been a much more interesting thread then where it is going at this point; it simply seems to funnel all the wrapper ego’s involved.
Regardless anyone’s motives to hold or share one’s expertise (although personally I think a forum and its members should stimulate fruitful discussions and not limit them), so far the few interesting questions in this thread have been snowed under by personal attacks and discredits.

What a total waste of time.

F.

[Rene Chavez]

If just deciphering an insignia or headgear from real to fake is hard enough man try collecting uniforms. I have Follow this thread with great interest unfortunately like any other uniforms thread it becomes complicated to say the least good reason why I don’t collect them but my hats off to all of you that do.

Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com

[DonC]

Well, unfortunately, to paraphrase the immortal Doc Holiday, "I calculate that's the end of this thread..."

Don