Brandenburg Cufftitle

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

Hi Scott,


I asked Rik to send additional pictures of the back of his CT. I agree the front looks good but there are a few things about the back that bother me. One is the rather jagged edge where it folds over on the back, the embroidery work on the rear seems rather poor compared to the almost mirror image i'm used to seeing and the tag itself. Heres a picture of Gordon Williamsons CT shown in his book German Army Elite Units 1939-45.

Heres a picture of some CTs from a site specializing in repro insignia for re enactors. Jim

[SgtB]

Wait a minute!

DJ, the pic you show of Gordon Williamson's CT is the
exact same pic you show of the 2nd repro, only retouched.
What gives?

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

DJ, the pic you show of Gordon Williamson's CT is the
exact same pic you show of the 2nd repro, only retouched.
What gives?

Hi Brian,

I leave any assumptions up to the forum members. I didn't retouch the photos, I only enlarged or reduced them in size in order to fit. regards Jim

[Gordon Williamson]

You may be right on the one which appears in the Osprey booklet. I'll be checking with the person who provided the photo. I was unaware of that particular type of repro shown above.

For the record, here is the one which is in my book on cuffbands.

,

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

I want to thank everyone who contributed to this topic. I want to especially thank Scott for all the effort hes put into it.

I think one point thats come across to me is how reference books even from well respected authors/sources can be improved. As far as the Brandenburg cufftitle goes I used 4 main sources-Bender German Army traditions/uniforms,DELAGARDE German Uniforms, Williamson Cufftitles and Williamson German Elite Uniforms. In 2 cases the text stated the CT was dark green but the B/W photos or poorly developed pic left you with the impression the CT was black. In Williamsons case he states the CT was black in both books and used a highly suspect CT in the book on Elite units.
I just think for the money we pay for references these days that the authors could do a bit more to assist the collecting community.I know theres no substitute for actually handling a real item but some items just aren't available for inspection.

I'm still not sure whether the CT was black or dark green. However it does appear that the way that BRANDENBURG was embroidered is identical in 3 of the 4 references I listed. Thats a positive point for me since my CT mirrors them.

Regards Jim

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

Hi Scott,

Unfortunately so little seems to be known about the late war CTs like Brandenburg,Von Mackensen, HUD, Metz etc. Most references only give sketchy details and even when they cite the order number they don't quote period regulations concerning the construction etc. Its usually through photos that we know if they were issued or not. Details about who manufactured them, numbers issued etc are non existant.The interesting thing about the CTs used in the 3 references I quoted is that the method of embroidery seems identical which suggests a single manufacturer. I have yet to see a repro that is similarily embroidered.
In the book on Elite units by Williamson he talks about the Hoch und Deutschmeister CT.While most references state it was never produced he leads us to believe it might have been manufactured.He even suggests 3 different Cts were produced-one in Green for Divisional troops and 2 types in black for the regiments. So if we can determine that the 3 illustrated Cts are original and were produced in both colors by the same manufacturer then its logical to assume that a similar relationship existed. Of course without a issuing order or more photographic evidence this is just speculation.

In any case this has been a interesting thread.

Regards jim

[djpool]

Hi Scott,

I'm glad you resurrected the thread.Maybe some of the new members can add something. I have continued to research period magazines etc in the hopes of finding more info, but to no avail. I am elated that you are now leaning toward Dark Green as being the correct band cloth color. I don't rule out black but I think there is more of a case to support Dark green given the units Jager lineage. As I stated earlier the order to bestow the CT came several months before the unit became a member of Korp GD. Prior to that the unit had no connection to GD. Its interesting to note that the 2 other units (Fuhrer Gren and Fuhrer Begleit Bde/Div) of PzK GD were ordered to wear the standard GD CT in Aug 44, when they were selected as members of the Korp. This was approximately the same time Jager Div Brandenburg was authorized its CT and prior to its order making it part of Pz Korp GD.

Its interesting that both references(Angolia/Schlict "Uniforms/traditions" and DeLagarde ) both describe the CT that came from George as being dark green.

I look forward to seeing pics of your Brandenburg CT and hope to hear any story behind it.

By the way I read your Article on the METZ 1944 CT. Outstanding article. Now if I can just talk you out of the one you own ha,ha.

Jim

[djpool]

Hi Scott,

Folks are still looking at the thread which is good. I think at this point the only way a forum member could help is:

-Provide a period German article giving the specifications for the CT.
-Provide a picture of a CT having indisputable provenance to a vet.
-Period color photo
-allied intell bulletin etc describing the CT.
-statement from a German Vet.

It is very difficult to capture the green color of the CT.I think your right that it is darker then the IR List Ct. , almost a black Green. I took a pic today using a better camera then I had before and it still looks more black then green. Jim

[hochiminhtrail]

hy guys,



just continue this thread, we all learn here, i cant say anything about a Brandenburg cuff titel because i havent had one in my hands. And that why so maybe so few other collectors are participating.

Alex

[djpool]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for your pics and info. I looked closely at the pic in Legarde's book and you can tell its dark green. The ones you posted from George also have a green tint to them. At least thats what my eyes see. I'm going to copy your scans and play with them a bit. Maybe I can tell for sure. Jim

[djpool]

I took several examples mentioned in this thread and using the advanced settings on my software I set the Dark, Midtone and Light colors to 100% on all examples.Here is the result-

the top CT is a Black GD title
Legardes Example
Georges example
My example
Your example

The Green tint is clearly evident in all the Brandenburg CTs.

I'm more confident then ever that Dark green is correct. Jim

[Eric Queen]

Here's the one that I bought out of GP's collection many years ago.

EQ

[djpool]

In any case, I think you and I are agreed now - and you were correct from the git-go.

Thanks. This has been a very good thread - got a rigorous review - we learned a lot - solved pretty much a dilemna - and no spitting or hair-pulling between contributors.[/quote]
Hi Scott,

I used the same software settings on the black GD CT as I used on the Brandenburg ones. Now I'm puzzled on the one Eric posted. It definately looks black on the top one. When I edited it using the same settings as I did on the others it turned out slightly different from the Black GD one, but didn't show a DISTINCTIVE green tint like the other Brandenburg CTs did.If anything I only noticed a faint green tint but not enough to say conclusively that it is dark green.

Eric what color is yours?

Regards Jim

[Eric Queen]

Scott / Jim,

I apologize for the poor quality of the photograph. Unfortunately, its the only one I have. I sold the band years ago. You cannot tell from this photo, but, per my recollection, the band was definately dark green, not black. This was especially apparent in direct sun light.

EQ

[djpool]

Scott / Jim,

I apologize for the poor quality of the photograph. Unfortunately, its the only one I have. I sold the band years ago. You cannot tell from this photo, but, per my recollection, the band was definately dark green, not black. This was especially apparent in direct sun light.

EQ

Hi Eric,

Great news! I almost called it Dark green last night when I did the little test with the software settings. I didn't do so because the green didn't jump out at me like the others did.

Scott,

I think theres little doubt that Dark Green is correct for Georges CT. Both references that use his as an example state that in the text even if its not so apparent in the photo. Your picture of his CT definately shows green. Now Eric has confirmed the color as green even if its not apparent in the picture. But we both know how difficult it is to capture the color using a camera.

It would be interesting to find out what color the CT attributed to Roger Hall, used in Williamsons book on CTs truly is. Of all the recent references this is the only one that uses a CT identical to the ones we've discussed and states its black. Theres one B/W photo used to illustrate the CT and we know thats useless in establishing color; the dark green always shows up black .

regards Jim