Brandenburg Cufftitle

[ngs3]

It's darkgreen on this uniform . . .

This is a uniform jacket I had the privilege of examining (at a time when I was broke). From the source and wear, I do not doubt this was slept in many nights. Someone is a very happy collector out there.

Neil

[djpool]

Tunic

This is a uniform jacket I had the privilege of examining (at a time when I was broke). From the source and wear, I do not doubt this was slept in many nights. Someone is a very happy collector out there.

Neil

hi Neil,

Nice looking tunic.Do you have any more pictures? Hard to make any intelligent comments on authenticity etc from the one picture. Regards Jim

[ngs3]

Another shot . . .

[ngs3]

Last shot . . .

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

Last shot . . .

Hi Neil,

I did a comparison of the cufftitle you show against those in reference books:

The lettering appears to be identical to the DELAGARDE one I show above executed in Dark Green(IN the scan I posted it appears to be black). Its also the same style lettering shown in the Gordon Williamson book on Cufftitles but executed in Black.

Mines identical to the George Peterson example in Vol 2 of Uniforms and Traditions which the text states is Dark green.However Scott mentioned that Mr Peterson now thinks it was black.

Just to be certain Neil the one you saw was on Black Band Cloth right?The dark green looks black under certain lighting.

Jim

[ngs3]

Hi Jim,

I looked at the photos again. It was long enough ago I cannot clearly recall and the photos are mediocre. My belief, reinforced by reexamining the photos, is that the cufftitle is dark green. This is not an area of expertise for me, however, I am certain the uniform is original and unmessed with. I went over it thoroughly in the short time I had it in my possession--it is the real deal. I just wish I owned it today.

Neil

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

Hi Scott,

I really appreciate your comments. I know you’ve been a collector for a long time and I’ve read a number of your articles over the years. I think we share the same goal-to find out the truth about the elusive Brandenburg Cufftitle. Unfortunately with no period documentation and only one B/W photo to go on its a difficult issue to sort. I’m almost convinced that it may have been produced in both colors. No facts just speculation based on the information available.

I’ve been checking my references the last few days and comparing my example to known copies and those attributed as being real. I have yet to find a “known copy” in green. All the ones I ran into are Black. The good news is even the best copy I could find failed to capture the lettering correctly. I just rechecked the lettering on mine VS the George Peterson, Lagarde and Roger Hall examples and my conclusion is they’re all identical in the way the letters are formed.. The big difference is thickness of the individual letters, placement on the band itself and of course the color of the base cloth. However without laying out all of them side by side this is just my perception.

Actually it was George who sparked my interest in collecting back in 1976.When I was stationed in Germany and England he would make a point of looking me up and stayed with us on a couple of occasions. He has more knowledge in his little finger then I could ever hope to achieve as a collector. However the most refreshing thing about him is he never professes to know it all. But he has his beliefs on certain issues as we all do. I hope he’ll be at the Great Western show in Dallas in Nov.

As far as the Infantry List C/T goes I’m not sure if any correlation or comparison can be made between it and the Brandenburg C/T. From the various references I looked at the List C/T was actually first authorized for wear by IR 199 on 12 Nov 43. The OKH order of 31 Aug 1944 authorized IR 19 to wear the C/T after the LIST traditions were transferred from IR 199. What may be relevant was the fielding timetable of the first C/T. It was authorized 12 Nov and by early Dec the first example was given to the Regt Commander, followed by a presentation to the Regiment on X Mas day 1943. The replacement Bn received theirs in mid Jan 44.

I’m looking forward to hearing further comments on this topic.Jim

[Rikster]

Brandenburg CT

The Cufftitle I own is in black fairly good quality wool. unable to post pics. if someone is able to do it for me, you can all have a look.

Cheers, Rik

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

The Cufftitle I own is in black fairly good quality wool. unable to post pics. if someone is able to do it for me, you can all have a look.

Cheers, Rik

Rik,

you can send them to me at:

jpool412@satx.rr.com

Jim

[SgtB]

Great CT, DJ!

Isn't it probable that the ct existed in green first, as with the GD and List
ct's, and then when the unit was absorbed into the GD it was changed to black
to harmonize with the black ct's that the senior unit was then wearing?

The lettering on the green AND black ones that I believe to be original are
identical. This,at least IMO, denotes the same manufacturer, as opposed to
one real and one fake.

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

Now here is the one already posted from DeLegarde's book, but I rescanned it. I believe it to be the exact same one George owned...look at the pulls in the top soutache...exactly the same as in the one I photogtraphed. There are other finite detail to compare that match up exactly as well, but may not be clear in these posted scans. It is absolutely evident when I compare the photo I took with the one in the book that they are the exact same cufftitles. I know DeLegard's text says it is on dark green, but to me in the book it looks black. The one at the Max I had to look very closely at, as the dark green was almost a black-green. Rather than producing in two colors, maybe the green was so dark as to look black at a glance - and hence the confusion with collectors?

Hi Scott,

Actually under normal viewing conditions the CT does look black. Mine looks more Green because of the extra light from the scanner. I don't think that 2 books using the same CT would call it Dark Green for no reason. I've taken a few more pictures.The first one is a comparison of mine with the one in the DELAGARDE BOOK.

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

Hi Scott,

Actually under normal viewing conditions the CT does look black. Mine looks more Green because of the extra light from the scanner. I don't think that 2 books using the same CT would call it Dark Green for no reason. I've taken a few more pictures.The first one is a comparison of mine with the one in the DELAGARDE BOOK.

This is the same picture but I made it into a negative so you can better compare the lettering. My picture is a bit more detailed than the one in the book but the lettering is very similar if not almost exact.

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

[This last picture was taken from a few feet using a flash. The Brandenburg looks black but is not as dark as the GD CT.

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

The Cufftitle I own is in black fairly good quality wool. unable to post pics. if someone is able to do it for me, you can all have a look.

Cheers, Rik

Heres a pic of Riks CT.Jim

[djpool]

Brandenburg CT

Hi Scott,


I asked Rik to send additional pictures of the back of his CT. I agree the front looks good but there are a few things about the back that bother me. One is the rather jagged edge where it folds over on the back, the embroidery work on the rear seems rather poor compared to the almost mirror image i'm used to seeing and the tag itself. Heres a picture of Gordon Williamsons CT shown in his book German Army Elite Units 1939-45.