Announcement

**FJ George** · 12-03-2008, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by R_Hessian View Post

Adrian,

So far I think the responses to this thread have been "ok" considering how important this subject is to American members of WAF who spend most of their time on the Firearms forum. Some members have some very strong feelings on the issue and have done a pretty good job in the manner that they have responded. Then again I have been fairly easy going as a Mod.

I would also like the thread to continue as a place to exchange not only views but also updates as to possible changes to our gun rights that are unique to the USA.

Cheers,
Robert

I 2nd that.

**Johnny R** · 12-03-2008, 09:26 PM

We are not the only ones reacting to this, Ammo and black arms are selling like hot cakes at all the shows I have been to. Everyone is worried what will happen.

**R_Hessian** · 12-03-2008, 10:12 PM

!

Originally posted by jhodgson View Post

We are not the only ones reacting to this, Ammo and black arms are selling like hot cakes at all the shows I have been to. Everyone is worried what will happen.

Yes, I agree. I went to the Reno show last month and it was so packed on Saturday that I left the show three hours early. The ammo/black guns were being bought like hot cakes... non stop.

While the mass of people were after the above listed I found a fantastic Walther HP that is waffen marked and in 99% condition, I also bought a no alphabet block CYQ.

I saw a SKS sell for $500.00 !!!!!!

**herbert38** · 12-04-2008, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by landsknechte View Post

Just be honest and say that it's political. The "it's not political cuz it's the truth" argument doesn't really hold a whole lot of water, especially when the language is so obviously slanted.

I'm not really trying to argue one way or the other in the argument by bringing that up though. I'm surprised that a moderator hasn't jumped in on this one, given what appears to be the normal threshold for doing so around here.

Personally, I would rather see the discussion stick to the actual issues, rather than devolving into an all-purpose bashing of the left. That seems to me to be a far more productive way to win as broad of an audience to this side of the argument. A lot of what I've seen posted in this thread is enough to make a lot of mainstream political moderates cringe, and plays right into the hands of the extreme left. It's not in the best interest of gun owners to portray themselves as "gun nuts" that would gladly enter into a firefight with law enforcement should the right situation arise. In the eyes of most normal Americans, that's only going to make you look like the type of person that shouldn't be trusted with potentially dangerous objects, and makes it easier for the government to sell legislation to the general public restricting your right to have them. If you're expecting the black helicopters to show up, then quietly bury your arms cache in the back yard and prepare yourself without the negative PR.

Sure, there are Marxists on the political left. You'll never win them over. Don't bother. Most Obama supporters aren't Marxists though. Plenty of them voted for him because they were sick of the last eight years, not because they were driven to do so by a desire to scoop up scary looking firearms. The fanatical anti-gun crowd is a subset of the left. Just a portion of it. Most people that voted for him weren't even thinking of gun related issues. Those are the people that the ardent supporters of the 2nd Amendment need to reach out to. Present your argument in a logical and well reasoned fashion, and you'll get a lot more done. If you come off like a paranoid tinfoil hat wearing militia member, or a parrot regurgitating the scripts of hardline conservative talk show hosts, most normal people are going to stop listening to you - then you've truly lost and this whole discussion amounts to little more than a circle jerk.

wow my thoughts to the T just don't know how to put them down that made scents. my hats off to you. Thanks Dan

**John Hodgin** · 12-04-2008, 11:09 AM

My small town local shop sold out of black rifles (and they had a lot in inventory) within three days of the election. I'd buy a dozen M4s if I had the $.

Another excellent video. Do you think Schumer really cares?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p r=goog-sl

**Gary Cain** · 12-04-2008, 04:21 PM

I live 30 minutes south of Reno and was at the show as well. MIWALL(also known as Wholesale Ammo) sold out on friday for all intents and purposes. They sent 5 semi trailers back to the factory for more ammo and sold out of that as well. They did 325,000 on friday alone!

Gary

Originally posted by R_Hessian View Post

Yes, I agree. I went to the Reno show last month and it was so packed on Saturday that I left the show three hours early. The ammo/black guns were being bought like hot cakes... non stop.

While the mass of people were after the above listed I found a fantastic Walther HP that is waffen marked and in 99% condition, I also bought a no alphabet block CYQ.

I saw a SKS sell for $500.00 !!!!!!

**Johnny R** · 12-04-2008, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Gary Cain View Post

I live 30 minutes south of Reno and was at the show as well. MIWALL(also known as Wholesale Ammo) sold out on friday for all intents and purposes. They sent 5 semi trailers back to the factory for more ammo and sold out of that as well. They did 325,000 on friday alone!

Gary

I have a friend looking for an AR-15 and literally cannot find one.

**dwalkerman** · 12-07-2008, 03:02 PM

I've read all these threads and think this an interesting discussion that merits continuing. I recently had an issue with the NICS system that really bothers me. I had taken 10 guns to my friends pawn shop on consignment. I had another friend about 4 weeks later who wanted 5 of them to post on his website. I went back to get....my guns.....and was delayed and then denied by NICS!!! I have never been arrested...have absolutely no criminal history...and have an unusual name for a man...Dana (not John Smith!!!)......yet now I am having to file an appeal with the FBI to get my own guns back!!!!! I can't even legally buy a gun right now!!!! I am sure there is no "agenda" out there to keep me from buying a new gun...or getting my guns back...I'm sure it is just a snafu with NICS....but it sure has given me some pause....when I ....as a ardent gun and sword collector....can't even legally buy a weapon!!!! I is a strange feeling.....and I don't like it!!! Imagine what it would be like if all of us were denied access to guns....when we all know how easy....and illegal...it is for a criminal to obtain one!!!! Thanx for hearing me out. Good discussion !!! Dana

**Gimpy117** · 12-08-2008, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by ChrisCook View Post

Someone can also take a Humvee or similar large vehicle and drive into a crowd of folks at a parade and kill numerous folks, that scares me as well.

The focus of the anti gunners is to take little bites. It will start with the AWB. Then it will be all semiautos or handguns, then it will be all guns. Your freedoms will disappear with small bites.... That is why it irks me when I see a fellow gunowner saying...."well geez, those black evil rifles aren't good for hunting or anything else for that matter...they ought to be banned."

We all need to stand together. A good analogy....Cocaine is highly destructive in our culture, look at the damage it does. It is illegal to possess Cocaine, yet criminals still have no problem acquiring it every day. Same thing with guns, take the RKBA away, and only the criminals (and government) will have them. Banning or illegalizing an inanimate object/substance will not keep it out of the wrong hands....

Interesting video for those that care to watch dispelling some common myths about gun control....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

Of course these facts are always distorted by the media....

I don't think so. and I am not an anti gunner, But I hate to see a society that is so in fear of other people with guns that we feel we need to be armed to the teeth because "they're out there"; and a place where we need a metal detector in the school lobby to make sure that a kid with problems doesn't come in and open fire on a lunchroom of kids.
The right to own a gun is protected by the 2nd amendment and that is a good thing. But personally I think the argument of "I keep this Glock for my own protection" is a weak one.
how many times in the news have you heard "good citizen guns down gangs of attacking street thugs with concealed pistol"?? Almost never. lets face it, many people are killed in their homes with their own self defense weapons, and besides, If a gang of thugs really wanted to kill you...they would because you legally owning a glock 9mm can't outgun 5 guys with Illegal AK-47's. If you really want to stop the criminals...do something other than waiting on the off chance that they might come to your neighborhood...do something to take their guns away!

The government will not take your guns away, and nor can they without a constitutional amendment, let alone the logistics of taking away the millions of guns in America. And I don't care what you say about the "darn Liberal Congress", Banning guns in any other capacity than Assault Weapons is political Suicide...they would never do it, the odds are slim that the entire democratic side of the house and senate will vote that way. and if they do there are checks to that power. If the public wants guns, they will have guns, that's the beauty of Democracy.

**landsknechte** · 12-08-2008, 11:45 PM

As long your intentions aren't criminal, then the relative nobility of your reasons for owning a firearm are irrelevant. At the very least, they should be. Even if all you ever wanted to do with a firearm is hang it up on your wall or use it to punch holes in a sheet of paper at a respectable distance - you are supposed to be protected by the Second Amendment.

Quite frankly, the manner in which most anti-gun legislation has been put into place worries me more than the anti-gun legislation itself. There's a system in place for amending the Constitution, and it's been successfully used in the past for changes that America deemed important enough. It's intentionally difficult, to make those changes, and it should remain so. It shouldn't be bypassed by wingnuts on either end of the political spectrum, and the tendency of said wingnuts to continually attempt that is what scares me. Both of the major political parties here in the U.S. are guilty of this, and they should be ashamed of themselves for it.

**CurtD** · 12-09-2008, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Gimpy117 View Post

But personally I think the argument of "I keep this Glock for my own protection" is a weak one.
how many times in the news have you heard "good citizen guns down gangs of attacking street thugs with concealed pistol"?? Almost never. lets face it, many people are killed in their homes with their own self defense weapons, and besides, If a gang of thugs really wanted to kill you...they would because you legally owning a glock 9mm can't outgun 5 guys with Illegal AK-47's.

Law abiding citizens defend themselves with guns millions of times per year. Usually, the mere display of a weapon deters the criminal. And these are almost never reported to police. You think that is going to make the evening news? And don't fall for that old canard about "you are 40 times more likely to be killed by your own gun than to kill an intruder." They conveniently leave out the fact that most of the time in self-defense, no shots are ever fired.

**R_Hessian** · 12-09-2008, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by CurtD View Post

Law abiding citizens defend themselves with guns millions of times per year. Usually, the mere display of a weapon deters the criminal. And these are almost never reported to police. You think that is going to make the evening news? And don't fall for that old canard about "you are 40 times more likely to be killed by your own gun than to kill an intruder." They conveniently leave out the fact that most of the time in self-defense, no shots are ever fired.

As a person who deals with the folks who would love to beat you to a pulp and take everything you own to include your life... and I deal with them everyday, five days a week.

Know that you will not stop them without harm to yourself unless you are armed with a firearm. They have NO fear of you... NONE!

**ChrisCook** · 12-09-2008, 12:24 AM

Assault Weapons Ban

Originally posted by Gimpy117 View Post

But personally I think the argument of "I keep this Glock for my own protection" is a weak one.
how many times in the news have you heard "good citizen guns down gangs of attacking street thugs with concealed pistol"?? Almost never. lets face it, many people are killed in their homes with their own self defense weapons, and besides, If a gang of thugs really wanted to kill you...they would because you legally owning a glock 9mm can't outgun 5 guys with Illegal AK-47's. If you really want to stop the criminals...do something other than waiting on the off chance that they might come to your neighborhood...do something to take their guns away!

The government will not take your guns away, and nor can they without a constitutional amendment, let alone the logistics of taking away the millions of guns in America. And I don't care what you say about the "darn Liberal Congress", Banning guns in any other capacity than Assault Weapons is political Suicide...they would never do it, the odds are slim that the entire democratic side of the house and senate will vote that way. and if they do there are checks to that power. If the public wants guns, they will have guns, that's the beauty of Democracy.

Several Points....
1) What if Virginia Tech hadn't been a "gun free" campus, what if a law abiding citizen student or teacher could have stopped the carnage?
May sound far fetched to you, but remember this:
http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2007/12...urch-shooting/
There are more stories on this, do a google search, of course the press paid little mind to it.
Each month the NRA publishes in their magazine (American Rifleman) a column called the Armed Citizen, many citizens dispel the "weak argument" daily in this country of being armed for self defense.

I have used a handgun twice in self defense in my short 38 years here in a "free" USA. At age 12 we had a home invasion with armed bandits (crowbars, tire irons, chains), I was able to get a handgun into my dad's hands in time to stop the situation instantly, merely producing a loaded weapon, and being prepared and trained to use it stopped certain injury and possible death instantly. (Yes, I was 12, and the gun was loaded, I was properly trained and trusted, and it was NEVER an issue).
Second instance was in the backwoods of Idaho when a crazed lunatic invaded our campsite with two Pit Bulls and a Large Hunting knife. I was able to get to my Glock and get the holstered weapon onto my belt. I never even had to pull it out or say anything. The mere sight of the weapon instantly stopped any escalation, the individual apologized for the rude intrusion and promptly left with his dogs and knife.
Some folks do use weapons to protect life and limb from "gangs of thieves", I'm living testimony to that.

2) AGAIN, WATCH THIS VIDEO, LISTEN TO WHAT THE CRIMINALS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ARMED "VICTIMS"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9RN_iSKtg

3) I'm guessing that a lot of our brothers in England, Canada and Austrailia never thought that their weapons would be taken away (or severely infringed upon) at some point in the not too distant past. I'm not up on how these countries govern, but I imagine that their citizens had a free democratic voice of some sort on these issues. We had a Supreme Court Decision this summer that could have gone the other way against the 2nd ammendment by ONE VOTE. Heller vs. DC Gun Ban case. I have no confidence in the future court appointments likelly to be made by Obama, and endorsed by Kennedy, Schumer, Feinstein, Pelosi, Reid, et al. Yes, I'm naming liberal democrats. Why? Look at their voting records. Look at who receives campaign contributions from Handgun Control Inc., The Brady Campaign, etc. We shouldn't resort to rhetoric, but these records speak for themselves.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-gra...-gun-proposals

Chris...

**ChrisCook** · 12-09-2008, 12:32 AM

Assault Weapons Ban

I also wanted to add, there are already a "plethora" of laws on the books to restrict gun ownership by criminals and felons. Fact is if someone is intent on producing carnage with a weapon he will get it one way or another. I am for stopping illegal possession and illegal ownership of weapons. Most laws however end up hurting law abiding citizens. I know many law abiding citizens who have no more than traffic violations on their record who enjoy shooting black "evil" rifles on the weekend at the local shooting ranges. The AR15 platform is one of the most accurate weapons out there, bar none.

"an unpublished 2004 study commissioned by the United States Department of Justice found that assault weapons were used in only a small fraction of gun crimes prior to the ban, about 2 percent"
SOURCE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Weapons_Ban

**psum240b** · 12-09-2008, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gimpy117
But personally I think the argument of "I keep this Glock for my own protection" is a weak one.
how many times in the news have you heard "good citizen guns down gangs of attacking street thugs with concealed pistol"?? Almost never. lets face it, many people are killed in their homes with their own self defense weapons, and besides, If a gang of thugs really wanted to kill you...they would because you legally owning a glock 9mm can't outgun 5 guys with Illegal AK-47's.

Not trying to thread jack but..
I would rather have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

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