Patina, what is it about this stuff ?

[Bulldog]

Hi everyone, I recently asked what patina actually is, now id like to ask you why you want patina. This seems to be a touchy subject for some people so please don't get annoyed its just a discussion. I have noticed that a dagger that has been cleaned is by many people not looked upon as favourably as a dagger that has a lot of patina yet its the same dagger and is actually looking more like the way it was meant to look when it was produced. A good thing about patina is that it makes a dagger look aged but you could just be looking at patina from maybe the 60s 70s or even the 80s which would still give your dagger 30+ years of patina. It seems that a lot of people would rather look at 30 year old patina than third reich looking daggers with all the detail and the true actual colour on display. Personally I like patina in the recesses which I think helps to highlight the raised areas, a sort of well rubbed down look but not properly cleaned. I like an army dagger to look mostly silver, not black, and a navy dagger to look gold etc. It is also some peoples opinion that a cleaned dagger is worth less than a dirty patined one, why is this, its still the same dagger and often improves its look. I think the value should be judged on the condition such as dents, cracks, chips, plating, parts, how rare it is etc and not on whether it has patina or not. I recently saw a dagger that someone commented favourably on then later after the dagger had been cleaned said they would not want it now, is the accumulation of dirt and oxidation more important than the condition of all the parts and history of it. Who was it that decided this patina look is the look that they should have, I wonder if enough people cleaned their daggers a new trend would be set. Some dealers also mention if they think a dagger has been cleaned, why does it matter, it may have been cleaned 40 years ago in the 70s and you wouldn't know plus its also a matter of storage so again why does it matter. The patina a lot of people are admiring is not something from the third reich period, so what is it about this stuff. Id like to know what your honest thoughts on patina are, the look, value, etc why do you like or dislike it and what do you think about cleaned daggers. Il be back Monday so hopefully some good replies by then. Thanks.

[nickn]

Not a good reply
But I agree with all you say

[Seiler]

Patina

Seiler

[JohnZ]

Bulldog:

I have wondered the same thing. I know that when we take out our sliverware (once a year, maybe), my wife and I spend a lot of time and elbow grease removing the 'patina' before we set the table. So, what is different about Third Reich memorabilia.

I do know that cleaning, if done at all, should be done very carefully... you do not want to remove lacquer and silver finish remnants as though they were dirt, do you.

I have carefully cleaned blades and scabbards of rust, dirt, fingerprints and other detracting and ruinous things. If you leave this stuff on the blade, it will eventually destroy whatever value you have. I have used leather preservative on hangers and portapees. Is this wrong...I think not.

John

[geefal]

I also agree.

I noticed on one page on here that someone had posted a government dagger which had been denazified and was wanting to get an original crossguard to fix it (good luck with that).

Everybody had coniption fits "oh my god, your going to create a parts dagger" the horror the horror.

Please....

If the original owner had broken the crossguard and replaced it with an original part, than "oh my god" would he have then created a worthless parts dagger. Hardly. If an SS officer had broken his grip and had it replaced, same thing. As long as the parts are CORRECT and ORIGINAL, I PERSONALLY have no issues with someone fixing a dagger.

I am biased though, my main focus in the years of collecting this had primarily been firearms. And as a gun dealer/gunsmith at the same time I replaced 100's of parts on guns. Totally accepted practice, as long as you are sourcing ORIGINAL parts. I sincerely doubt there are very many Mauser Hsc's out there that are 100% original with every part exactly as they left the factory. If you don't know what a problematic parts breaking little beasty those pistols are, well shoot yours a bit more. Between sears, slide catches and firing pins breaking, let alone replacement springs, I would bet ain't 1 in 20 completely original.

By the "keep it original and keep it crappy and broken" school of thought you couldn't even replace an extractor spring on a Luger without killing the value, which, newsflash is a common replaced part.

I do agree, if your putting an Eickhorn grip on a Hammesfahr dagger, bad thing.

If your putting a newly made scabbard, heck I will even go so far as to say a newly made scabbard screw, on a dagger, well you are creating a parts dagger. But if you have original parts that are correct for the item and have the ability to install it correctly, then by all means.

As far as cleaning stuff. Depends. If you clean it "CORRECTLY" without doing any damage, I can't see the harm. I think one of the reasons "cleaning" got such a bad name was that people in their zeal to shiny things up have taken crossgrain off blades, removed original finishes, etc. etc..

It all goes back to doing things "CORRECTLY" and unfortunately, not everyone has the skill/knowledge/ability/tools to do such.

If you prefer rusty broken crap to something that is fixed right, more power to you, everybody has different things that make them happy. But don't expect me to make your opinion the one be all to end all that rules all.

Seriously, how many broken guns out there would there be if we all ascribed to that theory, cause well it is an all or nothing deal out there, a screw is equally important as a crossguard on a dagger for being all original. It either is or it is not, there is no levels of all original to that sort of purist. Stuff breaks, and it was replaced.

Just do it right.


I will get off my soapbox now and let people all dogpile on me about what an idiot I am now.

[DR DOLCH]

One can always sell a dagger that has not been cleaned to a person who likes too clean them .You cannot sell a cleaned daggers to someone who likes them uncleaned, so it limits your market.Patina also attests to the daggers originality. It the same reason one does not clean coins or Tiffany lamps,big mistake.Cleaning also masks switched parts.Need I say more?

[ivbaust]

IMHO ... just a question of personal preference.

Some like the untouched daggers with patina. Others like cleaned daggers.

I belong to the first group. Love the untouched look!

[geefal]

One can always sell a dagger that has not been cleaned to a person who likes too clean them .You cannot sell a cleaned daggers to someone who likes them uncleaned, so it limits your market.

Will give you that. That is an excellent point.

Now, that being said, are you also against active restoration which halts the continuing degradation of an item, as in active rust? Do you continue to let an item degrade. Do you let leather rot or do you put a preservative on that.

IF. If a dagger is cleaned CORRECTLY, you will never know it has been touched. IF. If the parts are replaced correctly, you will never know it has been touched.

It all goes back to doing it right.

And if you say you would always be able to tell if an item has been cleaned or messed with, you just might be kidding yourself. Just maybe....

[Skyline Drive]

I clean my blades with a hot water and sudsy ammonia solution that will remove all dirt, grime, old grease or cosmoline without damaging the blade or its burnishing. I leave the rest of the dagger alone except to remove verdigris on nickel fittings where it could cause pitting. IMO, there's nothing like a pristine blade having been protected by the scabbard with moderate to heavy patina on the rest of the dagger. Daggers with polished fittings never look right to me because the grip and scabbard usually show wear not commensurate with new looking fittings.

[Schlange]

one can always sell a dagger that has not been cleaned to a person who likes too clean them .you cannot sell a cleaned daggers to someone who likes them uncleaned, so it limits your market.patina also attests to the daggers originality. It the same reason one does not clean coins or tiffany lamps,big mistake.cleaning also masks switched parts.need i say more?

1+


Schlange

http://www.mojalbum.com/schlange88/albumi

[nickn]

but you do take dirt and corrision (very carefully) off of coins and i guess tiffany lamps
there is a big difference between dirt and patina which some members dont seem to understand dirt and grim is not historic and doesnt mean a piece is original just that its been neglected and often only in the last few years leaving a piece with active corrosion is just stupid as is saying just leave daggers in a dry place to stop corrosion
iam with skyline i clean but dont polish fittings but i do carefully polish the blade
remember these were never carried dirty and i am sure the original owners did polish them
restoration if done correctly is fine in my oppinion and is not detectable i am sure daggers were restored and broken parts replaced during there time in use
i have a wkc km ivory grip hammered scabbard when i bought it the blade was very badly rusted a couple of days later i found a wkc with a brocken grip and damaged scabbard but mint blade so i swaped the blades no one would ever i guess i am opening myself up for abuse but i think i did the right thing???

[Reichsword]

To each his own

[geefal]

i have a wkc km ivory grip hammered scabbard when i bought it the blade was very badly rusted a couple of days later i found a wkc with a brocken grip and damaged scabbard but mint blade so i swaped the blades no one would ever i guess i am opening myself up for abuse but i think i did the right thing???

Sure, don't worry about it.

And if you think the dealers on here don't do that your kidding yourself.

One of the "supporting dealers" on this site has done much the same thing. Had a empty SS anodized scabbard for sale which I was semi interested in. I didn't purchase it because the shape of the fittings were not correct for the SS dagger I had. But I had kept the pictures of it on my computer for reference. Very distinct wear marks in the scabbard anodizing, but of course, they all have very distinct marks so that is neither here nor there.

Couple weeks later it was no longer listed on his site, I think, meh, okay he sold it.

Couple months later he has a complete SS dagger available (kept them pictures also and it is plain as day the comparison that comes next). Got looking at the pictures and sure nuff, same wear marks in the anodizing on the scabbard. NOWHERE in the listing did it mention it was a put together and honestly, why should it. The scabbard WAS correct for the blade he had it paired with.

But some on here would deride that practice. PARTS DAGGER

They would though, buy that dagger from the dealer, be proud as peaches to own it, post pictures of it and everyone would oh and ah about what a nice dagger it was (which it was). Then 10 minutes later slam somebody for even suggesting that you pair parts together.

It happens. And again, if cleaning and parts replacement is done right, you CAN NOT TELL it has been done. If you can tell, it wasn't done right.

Just that simple.

See that is the big catch if you say "oh I COULD tell", there is no way to know if it is done correctly. You can not prove a negative.

[nickn]

heres the dagger for which i make no apologise
knot was on it when i got it so i assume put on pre 45
if the blade had been damaged when in use and swaped would that make it any more of a parts dagger then me swaping it in 2005??

[nickn]

the fittings have nice patina ,but no dirt, and have not been polished in a long time