Question on SA Honor daggers

[Serge M.]

I sold you a mint SS M36 Chained, a mint SA Full Rohm and a Knight's Cross, all of which you made a minimum 30% premium and that was fine for me.

Hi Pat,
30% on those minty artifacts is quite a chunk of $'s... I believe you were quite generous, and this post may have others inquiring where they can get in line for the next batch. However, glad it went to Paul.

My problem is if I do a buy like that...I may not bring myself around to selling in for just Federal Reserve Notes. Like the Postschutz you got, I had to have one just like it in my 'core' collection.

I guess I'm not a good dealer, as I like buying a lot more than I like selling. I found when I get a second one just like it...it's not easy to part with also, but I usually manage, except in the case of full Rohm's.

BTW, Ron W. had a beauty chained NPEA leader a couple of years ago, a dealer colleague from Russia snagged it at the MAX.

Oops,,,,I got to get going to the show...doors on Pomona are opening soon. Early bird gets the worm !

Yes, it takes work. But it's fun work ! Love the hunt.
Press button - Fill Basket - is not for me.
Wish me luck.

Serge

[kiwitedferny]

It would have been GREAT to get into this hobby 30 years ago. The Vets were numerous, and one could enjoy the 'hunt and pick' experience. But we are in a new era now. The vets are passing fast; their goodies stashes have mostly been emptied, by themselves or their family.

Try finding a Vet bring back 'out of the woodwork' dagger here in NZ! Our troops ended up in Trieste, not Germany. The Yanks lucked out in occupying loot rich areas of Germany. Then, of course, they were there for decades as NATO partners during the 'happy time' for collectors, the 60s and 70's.

In addition Commonwealth troops had nothing like the generous shipping space made available to US troops to send their loot home - if it didn't fit in your kit bag - it didn't leave Europe.

The simple fact is that unless you live in the US or some parts of Eurooe, your buying options are very few, other than going through dealers. The Estand buying option being a fantastic exception, although high end pieces appearing on Estand seem to be infrequent.

I doubt I'll make a penny on most of the things I've brought. I'll be happy if, in 10-15 years, I get my money back. China and the Chinese market being the great 'unknown'. Who knows wether they will embrace the dagger collecting hobby as they mimic Western consumer trends in luxury goods purchases?

IF that happens and it's a big 'if'), then perhaps well known dealer provenance may count for something.

Who knows. It's a lottery. Golden rule - don't put your money on something if you can't afford to lose it.

[BobI]

Pat,
I think it is a much more complex equation to say military is a poor investment. Why don't you get some old DGs and even full retail catalogs from the Tom's years back, see how much our toys have increased in value. Ron W. used to sell killer SS helmets on DG for 300ish dollars many years back which was a high price but a quality item. I suspect that helmet would bring 6500 or more in todays market. I remember buying my 2nd chained SS from TW for 600ish dollars many years ago, what is that worth now? Juncker Knights Crosses were 300 dollars in the case, not too many years ago they were 1200 dollars. Should I go on? If this is not considered an investment what is? The percentage you pay your financial adviser you can consider the premium you pay to dependable dealers. Like Paul, I have many dealers who buy from me in the US and around the world. I am fine with that too, I wish I could buy back stuff I sold a few years ago for that retail price now, is that not appreciation aka "an investment"?
Too many people seem to have a grudge against dealer for turning a profit. I do this because I absolutely love it and have made many life long friends, several of which have posted on this thread.
Many collectors that sell on the estand have higher prices then I do, that seems to be a little too greedy but we live in a capitalistic country, more power to them when they sell and get those prices!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[bgrelics]

I believe this is a great hobby. In fact this is a hobby that if you buy right, you can make money and pay for your collection at the same time.I have sold to almost all of the big dealers at one time or another.
I guess you could say I buy for less then wholesale and sell for wholesale and they mark it up to retail.
Some of the dealers that i sell to have reasonable prices, but others that I see at the shows are completely crazy on their prices, Printz Eugene sword $4800, are you nuts, this guy I just walk right by his tables.
Thanks,
Bob

[BrianK]

It's great that dealers are making a profit and nothing wrong with that - but I suspect that the rising prices are based on rich collectors' OCD more than anything else. You just cannot buy at retail and easily make a profit - you have to work at making a profit. If you've been dealing for 30 or 40 years, yes you've made a profit - it's much harder nowadays. I'm in it for the fun - the most I've made by buying from a dealer, waiting 10 years and selling it to another dealer is 80%. The investment sales pitch pushed by dealers is based an a logical fallacy - "It's been a good investment for the last 65 years so it will be a good investment for the next 65." Based on the global economy and demographics, I have my doubts. There's a lot of psychology involved too. Otherwise certain collectors wouldn't be paying ever increasing dagger prices each year on big name dagger dealers' websites for no other reason than they think it's a good investment. Any militaria can be a good buy, but only at the right price.

[BobI]

Brian,
Your concerns of investing in military are true of any investment. 80% return, gee, I would be thrilled to make half that percentage. Some of the numbers I mentioned for example SS helmets and RKs have escalated over the last 10 years. I agree, the economy is poor right now however, quality items still sell and increase in value.
All of the comments made here in this thread were told to me when I was 10 years old. "Kid, get out of the hobby, the prices are too high and the fakes are too good!" Sound familiar?
If the world economy collapses and we lose our traditional investments I suppose militaria will suffer too. Short of that I like to consider history, people have been collecting arms and armor aka military items for over 1000 years. I have a 1000 year old Japanese Sword that in was in a castle that was burnt down hundreds of years ago. It was an important piece back then so it was retempered, it was part of a daimo's collection.
I am waiting for a logical reason why military items are not a good investment, the more I think about it the better it sounds. All backed up by people, places and examples that can be found in print.
BTW, if you go back 30 or 40 years guys will tell you about 12 dollar SS daggers. So, again, I do not understand the argument this is not a good investment, please explain it to me.
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Ron Weinand]

Another good thing about TR relics is that the interest is world wide, not just in the US. My sales have changed in the past 15 years. Now, about 50% is going across the ponds (both directions) and this insulates against the US economy IMO.

[busterz111]

So far I see a lot of dealers saying it's a great investment....just buy items because you like them, if you make a profit great. Last person that told me I would make a certain percentage return from a deal I ran away from.

[BobI]

So far I see a lot of dealers saying it's a great investment....just buy items because you like them, if you make a profit great. Last person that told me I would make a certain percentage return from a deal I ran away from.

I would say the same is true of traditional investments as well. I am not arguing in my post you should invest in military items. I am arguing that it is actually a well proven investment.
Best Wishes,
Bob

[J. M. C.]

Another good thing about TR relics is that the interest is world wide, not just in the US. My sales have changed in the past 15 years. Now, about 50% is going across the ponds (both directions) and this insulates against the US economy IMO.

I would bet it's probably even more if we only count edged weapons.

This is a trend that is slowly draining the U.S. of TR material. There may come a time when we have to travel overseas to get good deals.

[patrice]

Pat,
I think it is a much more complex equation to say military is a poor investment. Why don't you get some old DGs and even full retail catalogs from the Tom's years back, see how much our toys have increased in value. Ron W. used to sell killer SS helmets on DG for 300ish dollars many years back which was a high price but a quality item. I suspect that helmet would bring 6500 or more in todays market. I remember buying my 2nd chained SS from TW for 600ish dollars many years ago, what is that worth now? Juncker Knights Crosses were 300 dollars in the case, not too many years ago they were 1200 dollars. Should I go on? If this is not considered an investment what is? The percentage you pay your financial adviser you can consider the premium you pay to dependable dealers. Like Paul, I have many dealers who buy from me in the US and around the world. I am fine with that too, I wish I could buy back stuff I sold a few years ago for that retail price now, is that not appreciation aka "an investment"?
Too many people seem to have a grudge against dealer for turning a profit. I do this because I absolutely love it and have made many life long friends, several of which have posted on this thread.
Many collectors that sell on the estand have higher prices then I do, that seems to be a little too greedy but we live in a capitalistic country, more power to them when they sell and get those prices!
Best Wishes,
Bob

Hi Bob,

I'm in agreement with you for those that have invested 20 or 30 years ago have done extremelly well and you still can find some great deals out there. I never said that TR Militaria was a bad investment in itself, I was just stating that you should NOT buy TR Militaria from dealers only if your only goal is to get a good return on your investment, there are other means, like real estate and yes, even the stock market.
Even myself I'm certain to make a bit of a profit when I will sell my artifacts, how much, I have no idea but if I can get 10% I will be very happy.

I'm in no way against dealers making a fair profit, everyone is entilted to make a descent living as far as I know, I'm also making a profit when I sell my cars and I'm not ashamed of it.
There is no dealer bashing in any of the threads I have read either and it was not my purpose in any ways if it sounded that way, I'm only criticising those dealers that will claim high and loud that this is hobby is a great investment tool, that's plain untrue and in my opinion, somewhat unethical but that's OMO. I couldn't get my money back on many high end daggers that I have bought in the last 7 or 8 years, alright, I see it coming, you have to wait a bit longer and be more patient, perhaps but how long ? 20, 30 years ? No thanks, I don't have the patience to wait that long.


Bob, what I like about you is that you are always willing to negociate a fair deal, I'be done it many times and it was always a pleasure. I was mistaken when I said that I hadn't bought anything from any dealers in years, that's not true, I've made a few deals with you in the last 3 years.
I love my SS Degen !

[BobI]

Hey Pat!
Nothing personal taken so don't worry. However, due to this thread the more I think of it the more I can see how the hobby does parallel main stream investments.
Like stocks, some areas perform well at times and not at other times. I have noticed SS daggers have really taken off lately. There have been times helmets have gone parabolic as well as RKs, and always most SS "stuff". And we are talking about a year or two and not 10, 20 or 30 years. Then there can be items like army daggers that unless they are specail in some way very slowly increase in value. These average type of items are the ones you have to wait 20 or 30 years to see a substantial return. SS swords 10 years ago were a couple thousand dollars, they seem to have slowly increased. Now they seem to have stabilized and are slow to sell. Again, a normal trend in investments which will take off again in the future.
I do truly feel this is a great investment if you buy quality material. Again, do it because you love it and don't invest more then you can afford to lose. Again, the same as any other investment.
Best Wishes,
Bob