Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[Jeremy92]

.

[Frogprince]

I know that the description says: "Preceding the slogan is the 1935 through 1941 trademark." But I've seen better quality etching on bayonets, and would like somebody like JohnZ or one of the bayonet specialists to take a look. Also, after all of the ups and downs after the war, the old trademark was brought back. Wondering just when was this sword actually manufactured? FP

[Bob Coleman]

This thread makes for an interesting and very long read. I thought it pertinant to chime in my knowledge with regards to this dagger. There was a long time militaria dealer in Chicago, Mark Furst, who back in the mid 1960's brought in a large number of the first Atwood daggers. He had the SA daggers with the sports award dedications, HJ leader, Land Customs, engraved 2nd model Luftwaffe, etc, etc. Two weeks after the original Atwood pieces came out, he suddenly had one of these S A birdshead daggers. He gave me the "old lady brought it in" story. What is interesting is the already printed Atwood book came out shortly thereafter showing the exact same dagger and inscription!
For that reason, I would never trust one of these. I also heard from a very trusted source that he helped assemble many of the Atwood pieces along with the birdshead pieces. As the information was given in confidence, I will not reveal the name. That is what I can add to the discussion.

[Jo Rivett]

That is what I can add to the discussion.

& thank you for adding it

......This, along with all the other observations in this thread, should likely be taken into consideration when evaluating the daggers in question.

We are not talking about the odd flaw, and the odd cast mark, we are talking about different species of mutated winged creatures that would have led to the immediate incarceration and execution of the entire Eickhorn Staff for Insulting the national Emblem.

What we need to take into consideration first and foremost, is that the seller and owner of Both SA-Birds head daggers, put forth his side of the story at the beginning of this thread, telling us why both were the real Mc Coy. He also mentioned Period factory Photograph(s) and a period List-document was mentioned (i think by someone else).
• Fact, both Stories the seller told us, were Lies
• Fact, no period factory photos have yet emerged
• Fact, no period list has either

When someone backs up items, that together cost the price of a small House, or a Plantation in Brazil, using nothing but Lies........ it usually means that the item(s) cant sell themselves without an Elaborate, made-up, chic sounding story. In Germany it would be Dachbodenfund, vom Opa, or the best one Direkt vom Träger ! These alone should send Alarm bells ringing from one side of WAF to the other, and back again.

Commenting on the abysmal, handicapped-quality is fun, for my part anyway, and only serves to point out what we should all have seen the very moment we looked at these pieces.
Apart from the Fact that this is not TR Quality, this is not Eickhorn quality, this is not Presentation quality, there are no other facts. As someone pointed out, they are pictured in every dagger book from here to the North pole... yes, but there are no Facts in those books either, just nice, big pictures of Handicapped Prehistoric entities and a point back to TJ`s book, who points back to Atwood's book who made them ! For heavens sake man, just peel the DAF cogwheel back on the NSBO and insert a quarter into the slot, the birds eyes will light up and it will speak.

[Frogprince]

This thread makes for an interesting and very long read. I thought it pertinant to chime in my knowledge with regards to this dagger. There was a long time militaria dealer in Chicago, Mark Furst, who back in the mid 1960's brought in a large number of the first Atwood daggers. He had the SA daggers with the sports award dedications, HJ leader, Land Customs, engraved 2nd model Luftwaffe, etc, etc. Two weeks after the original Atwood pieces came out, he suddenly had one of these S A birdshead daggers. He gave me the "old lady brought it in" story. What is interesting is the already printed Atwood book came out shortly thereafter showing the exact same dagger and inscription!
For that reason, I would never trust one of these. I also heard from a very trusted source that he helped assemble many of the Atwood pieces along with the birdshead pieces. As the information was given in confidence, I will not reveal the anme. That is what I can add to the discussion.

I don’t know Bob Coleman, but I do know of him, and I really do appreciate his coming forward and sharing what he knows about Jim Atwood and the “Birdshead" daggers. And if we add in some corroboration in the form of comments by some folks who knew Jim Atwood. (Because they might not want to become involved in the discussion, I’m going to redact portions of their statements.)

“He (Atwood) stated ....... he had in fact made up a (large number) of daggers and swords ........”.

Another: “He ............ had new parts made ........... sold daggers made up of original parts, ........... original and reproduction parts, no original parts ........... complete fakes .......... pictured ........... daggers in his book to give them ........... authenticity ......... fabricated (some) documentation ...........”

With that as a backdrop, I would sincerely hope that Tom Wittmann does some exhaustive research before legitimizing by publication a dagger or daggers of postwar/questionable origin. This hobby does not need any more fakes in books that are used as references. FP

[cogwheel]

JF: The problem with that is that we don't know for sure if any of the daggers or swords that we all collect existed during the TR as they exist now, either in part or at all. Atwood brought back literally tons of blades, handles, crossguards, scabbard shells and fittings of all categories. It is not hard to guess where all that stuff went, and I'm not aware of a parts collecting community.
When I buy any dagger these days I never know for sure if it existed during the period in its current state. So all I can do is look at the books to check compliance with the general configuration.
For example, I have 8 army daggers in my collection. There is only one that I am absolutely sure that it is original. The other 7 check out with all the books as correct but I really don't know if some of them were assembled later from original parts or if parts have been exchanged along the way as a repair, etc.
The point is that I can't proof they existed at the time and no one can proof that they didn't. Having come to that realization it would be a waste of time to worry about it. So all I can do is make them look as good as possible, hang them in my display room and enjoy.

The birdshead dagger, as I mentioned before, has been shown in all the the publications to date. Some show full page color plates, front and back, owned by individuals who are used to owning high end quality collectibles. And now after all this time and dozens of books someone determined that the dagger is a poor quality fantasy piece. Well, he may be right, but then he may be wrong. Who knows - and who cares.

[Bob Hritz]

Cogwheel,

Your dagger is still the best example I have ever seen.

Bob Hritz

[ibrahim ahmad]

To all those readers who dont really know who this Atwood fellow is, pls read these 2 links I posted for a brief bio about him.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=204105
http://www.ww2f.com/militaria/19533-...wood-fake.html

Cheers,
Ibrahim.

[DTS]

& thank you for adding it
We are not talking about the odd flaw, and the odd cast mark, we are talking about different species of mutated winged creatures that would have led to the immediate incarceration and execution of the entire Eickhorn Staff for Insulting the national Emblem.

What we need to take into consideration first and foremost, is that the seller and owner of Both SA-Birds head daggers, put forth his side of the story at the beginning of this thread, telling us why both were the real Mc Coy. He also mentioned Period factory Photograph(s) and a period List-document was mentioned (i think by someone else).
• Fact, both Stories the seller told us, were Lies
• Fact, no period factory photos have yet emerged
• Fact, no period list has either

When someone backs up items, that together cost the price of a small House, or a Plantation in Brazil, using nothing but Lies........ it usually means that the item(s) cant sell themselves without an Elaborate, made-up, chic sounding story. In Germany it would be Dachbodenfund, vom Opa, or the best one Direkt vom Träger ! These alone should send Alarm bells ringing from one side of WAF to the other, and back again.

Commenting on the abysmal, handicapped-quality is fun, for my part anyway, and only serves to point out what we should all have seen the very moment we looked at these pieces.
Apart from the Fact that this is not TR Quality, this is not Eickhorn quality, this is not Presentation quality, there are no other facts. As someone pointed out, they are pictured in every dagger book from here to the North pole... yes, but there are no Facts in those books either, just nice, big pictures of Handicapped Prehistoric entities and a point back to TJ`s book, who points back to Atwood's book who made them ! For heavens sake man, just peel the DAF cogwheel back on the NSBO and insert a quarter into the slot, the birds eyes will light up and it will speak.

You, Sir, are a heck of a writer! Love it.

[Jo Rivett]

JF: The problem with that is that we don't know for sure if any of the daggers or swords that we all collect existed during the TR as they exist now, either in part or at all. Atwood brought back literally tons of blades, handles, crossguards, scabbard shells and fittings of all categories. It is not hard to guess where all that stuff went, and I'm not aware of a parts collecting community.
When I buy any dagger these days I never know for sure if it existed during the period in its current state. So all I can do is look at the books to check compliance with the general configuration.
For example, I have 8 army daggers in my collection. There is only one that I am absolutely sure that it is original. The other 7 check out with all the books as correct but I really don't know if some of them were assembled later from original parts or if parts have been exchanged along the way as a repair, etc.
The point is that I can't proof they existed at the time and no one can proof that they didn't. Having come to that realization it would be a waste of time to worry about it. So all I can do is make them look as good as possible, hang them in my display room and enjoy.

I agree absolutely with what you say, this Piecing together is still going on today by the Big names. You only have to read this thread below, to see how one of the Top names in the Dagger-game has just done it:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=506419
I also dont see how it`s possible to be in the game for so long, and only do this kind of thing once, now, some 40 years later.. so imho, daggers have, and are, being pieced together right now as we speak.

The answer to the above dilema? there is none, you have to be happy with it and gut ist's. That has no bearing on the daggers discussed here though.

Cogwheel, you said it a few times, ..nice big pictures in many reference books. Sure, but dont you find it strange that not one book footnotes any facts? trace all the footnotes in these books back..and they end with Atwood.

Do you think Craig Gottlieb has anything to add ? any research? after all, he has had at least one of the Daggers in question for several years... enough time to consult archives, backtrack, check, ask, find out... and after these several years, what does he present as "evidence" to authenticate his Daggers? Lies ! Would they be nessessary if any evidence was out there? (hmm.....finger rubs bearded face and poster murmers gently...... )

[Frogprince]

And now after all this time and dozens of books someone determined that the .................................

Lets go back to 2003 when Tom Wittmann fell on his sword (figuratively speaking) and stated that it was 1938 when the Police Degens were introduced, not 1936. But it was the work of somebody else* who actually knew what they were talking about, and wasn’t following along like a sheep doing and saying what “everyone” believed (which is all too common with those authors who like to copy each other).

Actual research and documentation that has set a novel, but “dangerous”, precedent. But you say: “So what difference does a couple of years make?” To which I would have to respond - Why don’t you ask the new owner of the “Kaltenbrunner” sword? With my point being that sometimes large or even very large amounts of money are at the root of some of these hotly contested discussions. FP

* He is very well known and respected in the collecting community, but may or may not want to join in on the discussion.

[Arran]

I wonder what this dagger would go for if Craig were to put it in his auction without a reserve rather than on his website with a set price...

[Ron Weinand]

The SA Double Eagle Head Dagger that I know about was in my hands twice and photographed by me. Not counting Gottlieb's dagger (which is different from the one I know of), how many of you commenting on this topic have actually handled one of these daggers in person?

[Jo Rivett]

....how many of you commenting on this topic have actually handled one of these daggers in person?

we don't need to. The pre-cut Quater slot, the Hand made by a blind person DAF cowheel, the most terrible casting errors on every square centimeter and state-funded Disable-house quality in general speak volumes. There`s a saying like that i think... Pictures say 1000 words.

edit: sorry, i forgot ... the general look of the NSBO and Silver-pelican daggers...well it could all just be "decent, honest wear and tear".. it could, yes, but only if the Recipient polished it every night with a Belt Sander and a Hammer.

[Frogprince]

“In hand” means what? The “in hand” argument was used how many times with the Hühnlein NSKK dagger discussion? 10, 20, more? But if you can’t tell mechanical engraving from etching. What “humped up” cast in place markings look like (with lots of casting problems). And never seen before or since markings just for starters. What good does “hands on” do for you if you have no frame of reference?

What are you going to use? Other fakes that have been “in hand”?? With my point being that so far no one has shown anything that doesn't have serious problems. Unless of course it’s at least 6 feet away. Or more for the silver one. But closeup?? FP