Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[Bill101]

Looks to me as if the game is now "up" as they say,,,,,wheres "hamburger head" now?

[Jo Rivett]

Tom Johnson and the NSBO-its the same dagger

Would i be wrong in saying the following, rather bold statement ?

The Birds head Dagger featured on the cover of TJs book (as pictured in this thread) that has a sloppy half moon cut out on the top part for the SA logo, is exactly the same dagger as Craig Gottliebs NSBO ? Of course it bloody well is, the reason that the top part has been cut out for the NSBO pin was to hide the Half moon cut out that the SA logo had.......
Here are the pictures, this is the same dagger for heavens sake..... there is even a trace left of one of the old marks.. see this pic, same pic but with red circles around where the mark is..

So of course its going to look very much like the TJ SA dagger on his book, because its the same dagger.. we have been played for fools here.....

edit: Here is the left side to compare, and here is the right side. he he he, we have been trussed up like Prime Xmas turkey gobblers....
The question now, is to find out why, and who would try and stitch us up like this? i still cant find out a price tag on this mutated piece, but if Craig Gottlieb wants $70,000.- for his restored Disneyland piece, then this must surely be more?

[Frogprince]

I don't have the same skill set, but here I may have to respectfully disagree while I do some further study. With my recollection of when I did some side by sides that the eyeballs looked a little different*. But from the same type of mold/pattern - yes. And there is no excuse for notching either of the daggers to accommodate a stickpin emblem that's too large. FP

* PS: I was looking at the left hand eye.

[TxGauleiter]

From Craig Gottliebs website, where he mentions Jason Burmeister as co-owner of this dagger, which clearly is now mired deep in controversy.

As one of the most elusive dagger types produced during the Third Reich period, this style dagger was a product of the Eickhorn company. Although little is known about the purpose of the dagger, it is assumed, based upon the 2 or 3 that are known to exist, that it was a style produced for presentation in a number of circumstances. To date, several examples in gold, bearing the SA rune on the quillion block, have surfaced, and one additional piece has surfaced with DAF/NSBO logos present. All bore damascus blades , and all bore raised gilted inscriptions (with one exception discovered by Tom Johnson). This particular piece surfaced in Nevada several years ago, with a heavily damaged blade and scabbard leather. Jason Burmeister and I purchased it, and after restoration are pleased to offer this piece to the public. The blade is a "ladder" type damascus, and has been deeply cleaned (pitting is still visible from the deep rust). The tang is marked "Echt Damast" with the initials RH below it. Grip is ivory, and has a few age cracks. Fittings are nickel silver, with a silver finish over them. Fittings have NOT been restored. This is the only silver example known to exist, and the reason for the variation on these models is not known. This piece will be featured in Tom Wittmann's upcoming book on SA daggers, and is a once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire a very rare and desirable piece at a significant discount, due to the disclosed restoration. This piece comes with a copy of the Wittmann expertise (not pictured). Please contact me for further details.

I believe that there are a few questions that need to be answered. The dagger is now completely outed as a postwar frankenstein, it would be futile to attempt any defense of the dagger. No 2 examples are alike, which proves that they were not manufactured in the same run at the same time using the same parts, pieces, and assembly. Nobody can question that these werent manufactured by Eickhorn.

Now, the only question is how deep does the deception run.

Mr Burmeister, are you willing to break your silence here and defend this dagger?

• Can we please see before-and-after pictures of the restoration?
• Would you please share with us the name of the person who carried out the restoration?
• Do you, with your experience actually believe this is an authentic, pre45 piece?
• What is your position on the lies of the daggers acquisition?
• Do you support your partner Gottliebs story of the dagger?
• Do you choose to stand behind Craig Gottliebs account, or take exception to it?

I believe the response to these questions to be quite revealing, whether answered directly or avoided altogether. Mods, please be patient. Colleagues, please resist making any inflammatory remarks that would derail this thread and have it shut down.


Mr Burmeister, Mr Gottlieb, the forum awaits your response...

[Jo Rivett]

* PS: I was looking at the left hand eye.

No doubt it has had cast flaws filled, and on the left, the beak has had a ding polished out of it, otherwise, they match up feather for feather, "brush stroke for brush stroke" remember it has been freshly plated as well, the grinding signs are visible on the beak under UV. Major easy to recognize flaws are taken care of when a future sale is intended, so this was not done by a collector having a bit of fun IMHO:

But from the same type of mold/pattern - yes.

Cant agree, look at the Pommels of each we have examined, all completely different, not only did they not come from the same die, they did not come from the same Dynasty, we have a time span of at least 500 millions years here, and evolution in between. Pommels can be changed though, as can grips and blades, so all we have are the cross guards ..and in this case, the feathers are identical in shape and carvings.. carvings is what they are, not delicate patterns... 3rd grade carvings. and from how i see it, they match up 100% on these, and explain the carved out NSBO portion-with-angle-grinder. (done to hide the Half moon that the SA logo left behind.)
Re-worked, refitted, re-wired and with a different blade, but the Cross guard is the same.


edit:

. This piece will be featured in Tom Wittmann's upcoming book on SA daggers, ...This piece comes with a copy of the Wittmann expertise (not pictured).

Maybe someone here who knows this Wittmann fellow, could mail him, or call him and find out just what info he has based his opinion on that they are real? surely it is not going to be yet another Dagger book with a footnote back to the Atwood picture and Gut ist ! ??
Maybe he has something solid and would be willing to share it?

[Frogprince]

Josef,

In my post I was speaking to the crossguards only. The pommels are slightly different, and I don't think that the cavities in the DAF/NSBO example were filled in with brazing material and plated. It's way too costly in terms of time and effort, and what do you do if it "goes south"?

But I do think that the same mold/pattern with the same "feathers" could have been used or reduced in size (if that's proven). My point being that you can easily remove material. But adding it is another matter. (And you still have the problem of getting parts to finish one dagger or the other because you have a (second) blade that you want to sell.)

As for lost wax/investment casting in general, one of my brothers has a company that has been doing it commercially for a long time. So while I'm not an expert, I do have an idea of what it would take to make something like these dagger parts. But that I think is a topic for another day.

Best Regards, FP

[Jo Rivett]

J....I don't think that the cavities in the DAF/NSBO example were filled in with brazing material and plated. It's way too costly in terms of time and effort, and what do you do if it "goes south"?

I do (not pommels, but Xguards), i believe you can see on this image just where it happened too, and not even a convincing job either (negative from TJ book cover, color from Weitze)
Reworked, filed here and there, had an Angle grinder taken to it (somehow that half moon needed to be taken care of) galvanized and bobs your uncle.
If it goes south? It did go south, the moment someone plugged the angle grinder into the plug socket without reading the instructions first !
Not to mention the Tin-cut out DAF wheel over the coin slot on the other side... It went more than south, that's for sure.

[Frogprince]

Josef, For the moment let’s assume that is right, and we just set it aside as we look at some other factors. If you stack the TMJ dagger, the DAF side, and the NSBO side together in an image. And look at the the left hand eye of the crossguard eagle. The TMJ eyeball is smaller, and is shaped differently with a small projection going to the beak as compared to the others. And even if the dagger is not currently sitting in a collection somewhere, it has to be at least as old as Vol. IV.

And the “going south” I mentioned was a reference to when brazing materials that have an identical (or almost identical) melting temperature. You are almost certain to cause more damage than you are repairing. Been there - done that. As a part of my education of how not to do certain things. Regards, FP

[Jo Rivett]

Josef, For the moment let’s assume that is right, and we just set it aside as we look at some other factors. If you stack the TMJ dagger, the DAF side, and the NSBO side together in an image. And look at the the left hand eye of the crossguard eagle. The TMJ eyeball is smaller, and is shaped differently with a small projection going to the beak as compared to the others. And even if the dagger is not currently sitting in a collection somewhere, it has to be at least as old as Vol. IV.

And the “going south” I mentioned was a reference to when brazing materials that have an identical (or almost identical) melting temperature. You are almost certain to cause more damage than you are repairing. Been there - done that. As a part of my education of how not to do certain things. Regards, FP

Its a bit of fun i guess, deliberating on this while we wait for the seller to return and enlighten us, and wait for FJS and the new List info I don't really think it has anything to do with questioning the Authenticity, the bad casting errors and coin slots speak for themselves. If there is one thing that most seem to agree on here, is that No Way were these ugly ducklings Presentation daggers.
You say been there, done that? you wouldn't be the owner of a certain Angle-grinder would you?

[Frogprince]

.............. You say been there, done that? you wouldn't be the owner of a certain Angle-grinder would you?

Maybe I do, and maybe I don’t. But seriously, I don’t have the “certain angle-grinder” that could have been used to modify the DAF/NSBO dagger. And I really do owe you my thanks for those images you enhanced. They are very informative.

With the first being:

but also on the actual shaft.

Which showed how the dagger was adapted for the stickpin emblem by cutting a notch. And as was commented on earlier, not that well done where you can see how control got away from the operator.

But the DAF cogwheel gave me some problems:

side view of the gaping groove

Until I decided that it was “scratch built” (made by hand with a small file or two from scrap). And up close - also not very well done, with the grove behind used to anchor it to the crossguard.

This is not the first discussion where seemingly small details have been overlooked by some of those who deal in supposedly high end items. But don’t these guys ever look at what they are buying and selling?? And I mean really LOOK at the item. FP

[Jo Rivett]

This is not the first discussion where seemingly small details have been overlooked by some of those who deal in supposedly high end items. But don’t these guys ever look at what they are buying and selling?? And I mean really LOOK at the item. FP

"some" is right, remember that this has gone from a WAF member to Craig Gottlieb, then on to Weitze... so not just one persons "honest overlooked mistake" and if i am right that this is the altered version of the one on TJs book, then you all know what that means
I like the Cogwheel, it has that "been under a bus a few times" look to it.
Stick a quarter in that slot and see what happens... maybe it changes into the Ultra-mega-flaming-rare NS-KKK dagger.

[DTS]

I believe WAF should institute an Annual Atwood Award. Nominations?

[Sgt. Steiner]

And now it is time for Craig to go silent due to (pick your favorite excuse): new baby, I don't need to respond to Craig bashers, I have a vet's story for absolute provenance etc. etc. I can not see why anyone would waste a cent dealing with such a controversial dealer (Atwood II?)

[Don D.]

And now it is time for Craig to go silent due to (pick your favorite excuse): new baby, I don't need to respond to Craig bashers, I have a vet's story for absolute provenance etc. etc. I can not see why anyone would waste a cent dealing with such a controversial dealer (Atwood II?)

Another personal attack, another infraction.

[wolfeknives]

It would be a great shame to see this thread die simply because we can not stay with discussions of the daggers in question.
Wittmann has listed a an Eickhorn showroom sword in his special offerings section. The sword seems to be well documented. I was surprised to see the extensive casting flaws on the guard. This was a weapon displayed in the showroom to advertise Eickhorn quality. Though the sword guard/handle is a large and difficult piece to cast, Eickhorn let it pass for this display piece. This, along with all the other observations in this thread, should likely be taken into consideration when evaluating the daggers in question.