Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[TxGauleiter]

The SA Double Eagle Head Dagger that I know about was in my hands twice and photographed by me. Not counting Gottlieb's dagger (which is different from the one I know of), how many of you commenting on this topic have actually handled one of these daggers in person?

Different in what way? There are al different. Have you looked at the pics of the 4 daggers and compared? No 2 are alike. Isnt that alarming to you?

I have never held one of the frankenstein daggers in my hand, so what? Does that mean that theyre not phony? Your point being what exactly?

Unfortunately, youve not been much help. You stated early on that these were gifted to industrialists, yet you offer no proof, just heresy. What proof do you have, where does this story come from. They may well have been, but what is your source? A lady in some town in Germany? Would that story hold up in a court of law?

Share your pics. You photographed them. Let us analyze.

[TxGauleiter]

Jason? Craig?

It would be reassuring to hear from you.

Lurking around, reading the thread without clearing up the lies does not look very professional.

Where are before and after pics of the restoration?
Who carried out the restoration?

What about the lies of its acquisition?

A very stable and sound reputation (not Craigs) is now eroding quickly by the deliberate avoidance of these direct questions. Jason Burmeister and his association with these lies and his refusal to defend his dagger or distance himself from it is now aligning himself with the type of dealer who has absolutely no shame, wiling to bastardize history, confuse the hobby, and make it more of a minefield for serious collectors, and that is unfortunate. What other conclusion could one make from all this?

To membership here: Take note, and remember these guys. They present a questionable dagger, lie about its acquisition. Attempt to explain away its poor quality by calling it restored. Offer no proof of its restoration. And when it got too hot in the kitchen, left altogether. Are these the type of dealers your hobby dollars are best spent with?

The worst used car salesman stereo type doesnt compare to this duo.

[J. Wraith]

This thread makes for an interesting and very long read. I thought it pertinant to chime in my knowledge with regards to this dagger. There was a long time militaria dealer in Chicago, Mark Furst, who back in the mid 1960's brought in a large number of the first Atwood daggers. He had the SA daggers with the sports award dedications, HJ leader, Land Customs, engraved 2nd model Luftwaffe, etc, etc. Two weeks after the original Atwood pieces came out, he suddenly had one of these S A birdshead daggers. He gave me the "old lady brought it in" story. What is interesting is the already printed Atwood book came out shortly thereafter showing the exact same dagger and inscription!
For that reason, I would never trust one of these. I also heard from a very trusted source that he helped assemble many of the Atwood pieces along with the birdshead pieces. As the information was given in confidence, I will not reveal the name. That is what I can add to the discussion.

Tough to get around this post for several reasons, interesting one here.

J

[Serge M.]

.......... I also heard from a very trusted source that he helped assemble many of the Atwood pieces along with the birdshead pieces. As the information was given in confidence, I will not reveal the name. That is what I can add to the discussion.

If there is anything in this whole thread that is more revealing (besides the actual physical 'anomalies' of the dagger) is the statement above. I know who that is as should a few circa 1960's- early 70's dagger veterans.

>>"he helped assemble many of the Atwood pieces along with the birdshead pieces."<<

You can handle all the birdheads you want but nobody 'handled' as many as the man who assembled them.


-wagner-

[cogwheel]

Here again we are talking about someone with a faint recollection of assembling birdsheads for Atwood. The question is - did he assemble replicas like mine or the one that resides in the Wolfe-Hardin collection. Unless this fellow can make a distinction his testimony is again nonspecific and , hence, useless.

With all publications describing the birdshead as a legitimate configuration that existed in the TR it would be historically hard to proof otherwise. During the relatively short period of my involvement in the hobby there have been several instances where someone started a rumor with the intent of discrediting a certain dagger. For example, the Himmler dagger with the smooth tail squirrel TM was rumored to be postwar. There were other instances were a certain configuration was targeted in a similar manner. None of these allegations ever went anywhere. The problem was that no one was able to provide convincing proof. And I have the feeling that is where this tread will end up.
As I indicated once there is the principle that you cannot prove a negative, in this case you cannot prove that the birdshead did not exist before 45.

I, personally, don't really care if it existed or not. It is generally recognized as a legitimate dagger not to mention the big bucks that are involved. By now, rightly or wrongly, the proof of its existence or nonexistence has shifted to the critics and everyone here knows it, admitted or not.
Reality Check !!!

[Frogprince]

All what publications? Period German ones? Or what somebody copied from somebody else - starting with Atwood?? Assuming that the other guy had done his homework?

If we do the math. We have a statement from Bob Coleman who said: “Two weeks after the original Atwood pieces came out, he suddenly had one of these S A birdshead daggers. He gave me the "old lady brought it in" story. What is interesting is the already printed Atwood book came out shortly thereafter showing the exact same dagger and inscription!“ That isn't specific enough?

And completely avoiding the silver and DAF/NSBO examples, right now we have the “Vetter” SA example in TMJ Vol. IV. So why don’t some of these guys who have these other supposedly “Original” examples come forward and discredit anyone and eveeryone who might be questioning them? That’s reality - when someone is not afraid that what he has might not be an original period item. FP

[Jo Rivett]

With all publications describing the birdshead as a legitimate configuration that existed in the TR it would be historically hard to proof otherwise.

You hav`nt read a word of what people have posted in response to your "going-around-in-circles" posts, have you ? Sorry, but this Jelly-Bean mentality is why the doors, no Floodgates, are wide open for this kind of miserable, degenerate Fantasy Pooh !

Let me ask you again Cogwheel, you wont even attemt to believe what anyone here is telling you, (people who are more than Clued up) yet you are prepared to Blindly believe, and defend, what strangers have Printed and described as Original ? If thats the case, then it`s up to you, it is though, your own opinion if you chose to Zombie-along behind those that force feed the hobby, and bears little relevance or importance in this discussion. If you have some period info, or some facts, other than pretty pictures, then please share them with us, because that is what this thread is about, finding out the Facts, not what a group of copy-n-paste authors wrote about decades ago.

[cogwheel]

What I'm saying is that all the books currently on the market, the new ones and those out of print, say that the birdshead is original. And the authors are well known icons in the collecting community. I don't think anyone can argue that.
This is fact. OK.
Anyone wanting to overturn this 'status quo' better have a loud voice and a well known following as well as irrefutable convincing evidence. A chatroom discussion on a militaria forum between a small number of participants is more like a 'voice in the wilderness' that nobody hears.
The birdshead is still what many would consider a high end item. And most of the people on this forum don't even know nor care what the birdshead dagger is. All what this here medium provides to them is that there are differences of opinion as there would be among stamp collectors or any other endeavor, you name it.

[schönbeck]

High end fakes. How many want to wake a sleeping bear? No the authors and dealers will keep to their stories. Its all about the Money.

[ibrahim ahmad]

From the book World war II German War Booty Volume V , page 129



And a more magnified image here http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6125/...a995eda9_o.jpg

Cheers,
Ibrahim.

[Jo Rivett]

From the book World war II German War Booty Volume V , page 129



And a more magnified image here http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6125/...a995eda9_o.jpg

Cheers,
Ibrahim.

Quote: "The Dagger and case set was evidently never presented... as the original Control tag is still attached....." Well .. call me names, i guess that dagger hanger got all worn and cracked up like it is by just sitting in that box. btw, interesting to see who`s collection it was in.

Fuess`Tip of the day, ... "You too, could own a piece like this, here`s the Tag for sale, and eBay will see you straight for the rest of what you need.

[Frogprince]

Now that is interesting!! The one from the Chip Gambino collection - looks like the same type dagger our fellow collector George posted with entry # 102. Look at the neck, wings, and eyes on the crossguard. And officially "blessed" by who ...................? How can that be??? FP

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...529256&page=13

[Jo Rivett]

Lordy Lord, i`ve just twigged why they are referred to as "Typical Eickhorn pieces" ... the tag...of course..
OK, we can write that Mystery off as "Cleared up" now.
This thread is making me feel like i`m in the middle of a Bad, News of the World film. It`s just getting worse and worse

[Frogprince]

And before I forget, my Thanks to Ibrahim for his interest and the posting. And to George whose posting set the stage for the comparison. FP

BTW: Page 44/45 shows the “Robert McCarthy” dagger with no named awardee, but said that it "varies". And I suspect that there are some guys around who know who the individual was that sold the dagger to Chip.

[Serge M.]

On boxed presentation cases I had learned to be leery of 'Left handed' boxes as in almost all cases the 3rd Reich presentation cases were made for 'right hand'.
So when the lid is opened the awardee lifts the dagger out by the grip which is located on the right side of the box. Also for reasons that the dedication may want to be displayed without scabbard and it cannot be but upside down the way it's positioned in the above example.

Just an observation of mine.

-wagner-