Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[odiestreasures]

SA Birdhead Dagger

I was the one who found the smaller version of the birdshead dagger that Mr Gottlieb had several years ago.
The dagger was purchased from an Armored Reco vetern who lived in Miltonvale Kansas. I asked him if he remembered where he got it and he stated it was picked up in germany towards the end of the war. He came back shortly after the war ended and it had been in his possision until I bought it. I believe he passed away a year or so ago.
I sold this item to Mr. Gottlieb shortly after the SOS Show the following Feb.
I don't know about any of the others being discussed here,but the smaller one I had in 100% legitimate.

Odell

[Jo Rivett]

I was the one who found the smaller version of the birdshead dagger that Mr Gottlieb had several years ago.
The dagger was purchased from an Armored Reco vetern who lived in Miltonvale Kansas. I asked him if he remembered where he got it and he stated it was picked up in germany towards the end of the war. He came back shortly after the war ended and it had been in his possision until I bought it. I believe he passed away a year or so ago.
I sold this item to Mr. Gottlieb shortly after the SOS Show the following Feb.
I don't know about any of the others being discussed here,but the smaller one I had in 100% legitimate.

Odell

Thanks for this recollection, but as we have seen many times before, Vets are wrong, vets purchased items post war to add to their collection, vets lied, vets lie.. and the majority of Vet-bring-back stories are nothing more than hot air used to validate a suspect item. In some cases, Vet stories are even Made up entirely by the third party wishing to sell the item

All you have to back up that your dagger "was 100% legit" is a Story from an Old man...... Not good enough when it comes to a Years Salary.

[Frogprince]

I was the one who found the smaller version of the birdshead dagger that Mr Gottlieb had several years ago.
The dagger was purchased from an Armored Reco vetern who lived in Miltonvale Kansas. I asked him if he remembered where he got it and he stated it was picked up in germany towards the end of the war. He came back shortly after the war ended and it had been in his possision until I bought it. I believe he passed away a year or so ago.
I sold this item to Mr. Gottlieb shortly after the SOS Show the following Feb.
I don't know about any of the others being discussed here,but the smaller one I had in 100% legitimate.

Odell

If this is: “The example purchased by me from the living veteran - the NSBO/DAF example ...........”, alternately: “My personal opinion, based upon another bird's head type dagger I located several years ago in the hands of a LIVING veteran (one with a beautiful blade with raised presentation, but more of a letter-opener sized blade, with a very rudimentary scabbard)..........”.

Because F.J. Stephens said: “The first point is that you NEVER obtained the dagger from a “living veteran” at all; you stated to me that you obtained from a man you describer as a “Picker” – some type of general dealer, who occasionally lets you know when he has militaria for sale. Now that is a whole lot different to getting the piece from a “living veteran” ..........

What does this latest posting also tell us? FP

[David North]

Dear Craig

Thankyou your very kind and generous response.

I do however believe that there are no longer any serious issues regarding personal or subjective attacks within this thread on contributing individuals. This is now ancient history and decidedly infra dig and clearly frowned upon by the moderators of the WA forum. Neither do we have "believers arguing with Fred (sic) Stephens" which is perhaps an odd declaration, bearing in mind the blue chip reputation of FJS.

There is a genuine interest in this dagger and which cannot be understated, ignoring if we can, the pecuniary impact of a purchase. Money is secondary and the historical aspect is of premier importance.

As such, there are those and myself included who would be very interested toward receiving the benefit of your expert answers to some very basic questions previously asked and which of course, will be of benefit to all.

Thankyou in anticipation.

Regards,

David

[TxGauleiter]

I'm sorry, Mr. Gauileter, but you seriously over-estimate your importance to me. You sir are irrelevant to me, and so are your thoughts about this dagger. If you had a business to run, an infant son to take care of, out-of-town guests, international press interviews, an upcoming auction, you'd probably not have time for your antics either. Besides, as history has shown me and all but a small core of "believers," arguing with Fred Stephens and his crowd is a complete waste of time. I greatly respect and enjoy Wehrmacht-Awards.com and the outstanding people here, which is why I am a life member, a financial contributor, and why I post frequently, unlike other dealers. Mr. Gauleiter . . . as William Shatner said, move out of your parent's basement, and get a life.

I appreciate your attention to me here, and while I suppose I could act offended by your personal attack towards me, I choose to take this opportunity to again ask you to address the bullet points asked of you earlier. I can only imagine the demands made of your time with a new family and the preparation of your new auction. I guess you only have time to post in 'specific' threads of this website on a daily basis, and didnt have time until now to address this one.

I apologize you view my persistent commitment to the truth as "antics" and will do my best to be more articulate in the future, but I respectfully request that you please stay on topic here and address the inconsistencies in your story.

[Craig Gottlieb]

That is correct, and I actually got to interview the veteran on the phone, and recorded the interview. But, and I hate to say this . . . you just opened yourself up to Mr. Fred Stephens and his cohorts bombarding you with emails and demands for information. None of it will be useful. One thing you can be sure of . . . when Mr. Stephens and his small cohort of skeptics demand information, that is the quickest way to send me packing. To them, skepticism seems like a sport, and even in the face of photographic evidence or veteran documentation, if the dagger isn't pleasing to them, they will dismiss anything out of hand. I have nothing to hide, and in this situation, no "forum fodder" to give you. Both daggers are real, so says even Tom Wittmann, who is definitely not one of my biggest fans. And if you're not happy with them, don't buy them.

[Frogprince]

I was the one who found the smaller version of the birdshead dagger that Mr Gottlieb had several years ago.
The dagger was purchased from an Armored Reco vetern who lived in Miltonvale Kansas. I asked him if he remembered where he got it and he stated it was picked up in germany towards the end of the war. He came back shortly after the war ended and it had been in his possision until I bought it. I believe he passed away a year or so ago.
I sold this item to Mr. Gottlieb shortly after the SOS Show the following Feb.
I don't know about any of the others being discussed here,but the smaller one I had in 100% legitimate.

Odell

We have:

“The example purchased by me from the living veteran - the NSBO/DAF example ...........”, alternately: “My personal opinion, based upon another bird's head type dagger I located several years ago in the hands of a LIVING veteran (one with a beautiful blade with raised presentation, but more of a letter-opener sized blade, with a very rudimentary scabbard)..........”.

To which F.J. Stephens originally said:

“The first point is that you NEVER obtained the dagger from a “living veteran” at all; you stated to me that you obtained from a man you describer as a “Picker” – some type of general dealer, who occasionally lets you know when he has militaria for sale. Now that is a whole lot different to getting the piece from a “living veteran” ..........

 
Also from FJS earlier:

“In fact when I insist that you be put in direct contact with the veteran – the news comes back he “has died”.........

And now:

That is correct, and I actually got to interview the veteran on the phone, and recorded the interview. Both daggers are real, so says even Tom Wittmann, who is definitely not one of my biggest fans......... "

I don’t know if he had a “hands on” with these daggers or not, and while I have a lot of respect for Tom Wittmann who has contributed a lot to this hobby, he is not omniscient. Either in his books or in person depending on what is being asked or discussed. And I’m not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just saying that like most of us human beings he is not always right. FP

[DTS]

Personally, I find this entire thread fascinating. It would be good to know once and for all if these daggers existed/or are real.

So far, there is absolutely no pre-1945 evidence presented that they did.

There is however, post 1945 evidence that at least some of them were created by Atwood.

[james m]

Personally, I find this entire thread fascinating. It would be good to know once and for all if these daggers existed/or are real.

So far, there is absolutely no pre-1945 evidence presented that they did.

There is however, post 1945 evidence that at least some of them were created by Atwood.

I don't have a dog in this fight but perhaps the fact that none other than James P. Atwood is pictured on the back of the dust cover with the books Author Tom Johnson of "COLLECTING THE EDGED WEAPONS OF THE THIRD REICH" - VOLUME I is fitting here. This is the very Volume cited as the original reference for this "Birds Head" dagger!
Jim

[Jo Rivett]

oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to decieve

Frogprince is correct, i missed this part, which is understandable considering the Hype.
If what user: Odiestreasures has just posted is true, then i am afraid that Mr Craig Gottlieb has once again, Lied to us.

I was the one who found the smaller version of the birdshead dagger that Mr Gottlieb had several years ago. Odell

From post 18 by Craig Gottlieb concerning the above mentioned Dagger.

My personal opinion, based upon another bird's head type dagger I located several years ago in the hands of a LIVING veteran (one with a beautiful blade with raised presentation, but more of a letter-opener sized blade, with a very rudimentary scabbard),

What i also failed to see the first time round, was Craigs statement that he found this dagger several years ago.......
Now, Several Years is long enough to gether the period evidence and facts, so Please, Mr Craig Gottlieb, stop lying to us, stop posting twisted versions of the story, and deliver the Facts !! The only Antics going on here are your doings.

[Frogprince]

Now, Several Years is long enough to gather the period evidence and facts ................

I think that it had to have been longer than that. Post # 51:

“I first heard of the “DAF birds-head dagger” on 28 July 2007 at 15:03 hours. No discussion, and on 05 August 2007 the sharing of pictures of the dagger was expressly forbidden. So my curiosity was aroused, but I could not really put a “face” on the dagger until now..........”

I have the transcript, and it came up in a discussion that included Craig as a primary participant about something else, with my understanding being that the circumstances surrounding one of the items did not please Tom Wittmann.

But irrespective of any controversy/conflicting accounts, the DAF/NSBO dagger is still very noticeably flawed. FP

[TxGauleiter]

I guess you only have time to post in 'specific' threads of this website on a daily basis, and didnt have time until now to address this one....

I realize now that my sarcastic tone was lost due to the limitations of digital communication..

Craig, your stories are conflicting each other left and right. Your post-war frankenstein dagger may have indeed been featured in blade books across the decades, but it is probable that the dagger may have been thought at the time of its publication to be a pre-45 piece. That it may have been included in decades old references does make it a legitimate piece, as you should know.

You have yet to address the "before and after" photo request and you are asked to explain the discrepancy in the 'vet story' and how the dagger came into your possession.

Please stay on topic here and address the inconsistencies in your story.

• please provide before and after pictures of the daggers restoration as proof of the alleged restoration
-by whom was it restored and where are the pictures?
• please explain how the dagger came into your possession
-the person who sold it to you is contradicting your claim that you obtained it from the vet, is he lying or are you?

your tactful dodging of these direct questions only serves to implicate you, and its quite uncomfortable to watch.. this thread will be around a long time and likely will be referenced by your detractors in future threads, as evidence of your oft cited credibility issues.

you said early on, "There is no debate here" yet most everything youve said since then is a complete fabrication and a lesson on avoidance. the entire forum anxiously awaits the answers. please, shut the detractors up with your conversation-ending proof of its pre-1945 status!

please do yourself and us a favor and address once and for all these issues.

[odiestreasures]

Birdshead Dagger

I had this dagger in my possission for several months before craig new about it.
I called a friend of mine who is far more versed on blades than I am and he gave me some information on it.
I took it to the Wichita military Show in november and showed it to him there. Mr Angolia was at the show and I showed it to him and his commit was My God, do you know what you have here!!! After looking it over he said do you know what this is worth. I said No and he gave me a 5 figure evaluation.
I contacted Mr Gottlieb shortly after that and he convinced me to send him the dagger to look over. The next call from him was ,will you sell it and if so what do you want. I finally decided to sell it if I could get what i wanted for it. We meet at the SOS and tried to get together on a price. I finally came down 2000.00 dollars if he would take it at the show,if not the price went back to the asking price. It was sold shortly after the SOS.
Anyway that is the story on this dagger. I really take ofence at some of the remarks about our veterns. I have been doing this since 1969 and have meet some wonderful vets. I have never once been lied to or taken advantage of.

Regards To All Of You
Odell

[Jo Rivett]

I had this dagger in my possission for several months before craig new about it.
I called a friend of mine who is far more versed on blades than I am and he gave me some information on it.
I took it to the Wichita military Show in november and showed it to him there. Mr Angolia was at the show and I showed it to him and his commit was My God, do you know what you have here!!! After looking it over he said do you know what this is worth. I said No and he gave me a 5 figure evaluation.
I contacted Mr Gottlieb shortly after that and he convinced me to send him the dagger to look over. The next call from him was ,will you sell it and if so what do you want. I finally decided to sell it if I could get what i wanted for it. We meet at the SOS and tried to get together on a price. I finally came down 2000.00 dollars if he would take it at the show,if not the price went back to the asking price. It was sold shortly after the SOS.
Anyway that is the story on this dagger. I really take ofence at some of the remarks about our veterns. I have been doing this since 1969 and have meet some wonderful vets. I have never once been lied to or taken advantage of.

Regards To All Of You
Odell

Thanks again for your side, very interesting. Especially the price
The vet bring back story carries no weight today i am afraid, not even with small pieces, and most certainly not to validate a dagger that never existed pre-1945.
I have only ever been lied to, face to face at shows, by vets and Old men who were supposedly there, supposedly fighting, supposedly remember everything.. mostly in Germany from Germans, but in the US it has always been much worse, ever since the 1960`s these stories should automatically raise alarms. (The HJ Foreigners badge on stock-cards comes to mind)
Odell, Neither Angolia, Craig Gottlieb, Wittmann, Weitze or any other "name" can tell you anything about these daggers, other than what The Original maker Atwood wrote. There are no facts, there is no proof, just a bunch of "names" multi-quoting what a Horrible fraudster wrote in the mid 60`s, and adding Lies to their tales too.......

Lastly, concerning Vet Stories. No vet story can be used to Authenticate anything, no matter how valuable or not. History and facts always come first.

If you had it for a few months before Craig Gottlieb even knew about it, then why has Craig said that he got it directly out of the hands of a Living vet?? madness......... and you see my point now regarding vet stories ►►? Obviously after your account, we know that Craig Gottlieb has lied to us, trying to make us believe the Vet story before looking at the item properly.... now you come with a similar story...? so why should we trust you, or even what you were told? how do you know that the "vet" was a vet, or that he was telling you the truth? we don't, you don't, that's just the way it works, and that's why it is better to ignore all Tales and Fables from vets, as this thread and your posts prove, Lies are almost always behind them

[F. J. Stephens]

Jack Angolia knows the dagger ?

I had this dagger in my possission for several months before craig new about it.
I called a friend of mine who is far more versed on blades than I am and he gave me some information on it.
I took it to the Wichita military Show in november and showed it to him there. Mr Angolia was at the show and I showed it to him and his commit was My God, do you know what you have here!!! After looking it over he said do you know what this is worth. I said No and he gave me a 5 figure evaluation.
I contacted Mr Gottlieb shortly after that and he convinced me to send him the dagger to look over. The next call from him was ,will you sell it and if so what do you want. I finally decided to sell it if I could get what i wanted for it. We meet at the SOS and tried to get together on a price. I finally came down 2000.00 dollars if he would take it at the show,if not the price went back to the asking price. It was sold shortly after the SOS.
Anyway that is the story on this dagger. I really take ofence at some of the remarks about our veterns. I have been doing this since 1969 and have meet some wonderful vets. I have never once been lied to or taken advantage of.

Regards To All Of You
Odell

Odell,

I am going to ask Jack Angolia about your above statement, because I do know him (and have done so for about 40 years) - so your claim now has to be taken to establish "proof". It is the minimum standard of evidence that we currently desire.

Obviously you will have no objection regarding my intrusive demands for "evidence"?

Yours, respectfully

Frederick J. Stephens