Panzer EM/NCO Overseas cap by Clemens Wagner

[Mark Gibson]

For reference, a better shot of the stamp and a photo showing a very similar date font on a B-H cap.

William,
I wouldn't go using that 1940 dated stamp from a tropical liner to try to convince anyone that your panzer cap is original. The tropical liner that you have shown is from a fake cap.

Mark

[Mark Gibson]

Here is the outside.

Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thanks Mark,

Yes that cap is a bad one. Thanks for posting it.

William's cap has the Braunschweig version stamp not the Hamburg-Braunschweig version, similar to many shown in this thread. The stamp from William's cap is an original stamp that can also be found on tropical caps, see post # 21 & 45. As well as many of the caps in this thread...

[Mark Gibson]

Thanks Mark,

Yes that cap is a bad one. Thanks for posting it.

William's cap has the Braunschweig version stamp not the Hamburg-Braunschweig version, similar to many shown in this thread. The stamp from William's cap is an original stamp that can also be found on tropical caps, see post # 21 & 45. As well as many of the caps in this thread...

He's the one comparing his caps stamp to a fake. I'm surprised that none of the Clemens Wagner 'experts' picked that up.

[Tim O'Keefe]

William is comparing his stamp to the original stamp from Braunschweig not the fake from Hamburg. William's cap is from Braunschweig. But your right the CW "experts" have been silent on this one, maybe cause if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck , its a CW duck

[all1knew]

He's the one comparing his caps stamp to a fake. I'm surprised that none of the Clemens Wagner 'experts' picked that up.

Thanks, Mark. There is such little information and discussion I'm trying to compare it to anything I can find out there. This cap certainly is an anomaly and if authentic is quite scarce. A fun puzzle thus far! Hopefully this thread will be a good reference down the road with all the caps that have been posted here and I've tried to link together. One thing's for sure though, the Brauschweig depot produced a very limited number of caps and is obscure compared to the larger Hamburg facility; there just isn't enough information out there yet and nobody seems to know much about them.

William Kramer

[OSS]

He's the one comparing his caps stamp to a fake. I'm surprised that none of the Clemens Wagner 'experts' picked that up.

I found myself wondering just who these "Clemens Wagner experts" you refer to might be so I reread the entire thread and you are right; there are several participants who seem to have detailed information regarding the manufacture of Clemens Wagner headgear; the location of their factories and the specifics of their trademarks and whatnot. They should have no problem telling a good cap from a bad one.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Agree, you may want to do some more research on CW before you continue as you missed the irrelevant fake as well, but a typical feint.

Ramsey, as i respect your opinion greatly and your one of only two Pz sidecap experts that have commented on William's Pz cap (besides Lucky), what redflags do you see ? Many agree that the material, insignia, grommets & makers mark are all good, but you must be seeing something not quite right ?

Besides the real CW "experts" have yet to comment, that is very telling imo.

[B. N. Singer]

...In my experence, I have not seen a good early piped overseas cap with machine sewn eagle insignia. I have seen the cocade machine applied however.
Thank you,
Curtiss

Greetings Sir,

“Wagner” being one of the war’s more prolific manufacturers of hats it is certain, IMO, that various methods of insignia attachment were employed. (To include completely hand sewn, partially hand/partially machine sewn & completely machine sewn).

Regards to you,

B. N. Singer (not one of the "Clemens Wagner experts")

[OSS]

I fear this thread will not offer much guidance to those hoping to navigate the treacherous waters of IIIR field cap collecting. An assortment of knowledgeable collectors have seemingly blessed a diverse range of materials, markings and construction methods.

[90th Light]

Greetings Sir,

“Wagner” being one of the war’s more prolific manufacturers of hats it is certain, IMO, that various methods of insignia attachment were employed. (To include completely hand sewn, partially hand/partially machine sewn & completely machine sewn).

Regards to you,

B. N. Singer (not one of the "Clemens Wagner experts")

Hello OSS,

it would appear to me reading this quote above that a very knowledgeable collector is blessing a diverse range of insignia application methods.

Thus I agree with you that is a difficult to give exact rules of thumb on some aspects of CW field cap production.

However, I want to add here something that I have said more than once on other threads specifically about CW tropical caps. I have never seen a CW 1940 tropical sidecap that I believed to be original and I have never seen a CW tropical billed M40 dated 1940 or any other date that I believed to be original. I know some will disagree with me but I am not alone in this statement about their tropical cap production. Thus myself and others take it as a given that when one sees a CW stamp dated 1940 on a red liner, is there a need to keep going over and over old ground on every single thread that this maker did not make tropical caps in 1940 ?

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Chris

Well this thread is about the possibility of CW making the Pz sidecap ? Your thoughts on William's cap ? As there seems to be so little info on CW Pz sidecaps, we are resorting to the info from CW tropical & other non Pz CW European caps instead.

Agree so far the earliest date of the CW sidecap is Feb '41 and here is a thread showing several CW original M40's both from Hamburg (threadstarter dated March '42) & Braunschweig '41 later in the thread with a very good discussion....

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=467580

But we should really keep to thread & the CW Pz sidecaps if original ?

[90th Light]

Hello Tim,

this excellent thread sums up how I feel about 1940 CW tropical caps in any form;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=Dal

and I quote from it word for word;

"I know there is a belief held by a number of advanced collectors that one other firm manufactured the tropical field cap in 1940, a factory located in another Wehrkreis, not one of the six firms I have listed. If this was so it would be the only example of cotton tropical uniform made in 1940 by a factory not located within Wehrkreis III or Wehrkreis VIII. (I am not including items such as tropical boots and pith helmets we know were not manufactured solely in these areas.) Why would the Army give a contract to one firm sending its material first to a main issuing depot in another city thus making for double handling and logistical problems in transferring the caps from one Wehrkreis administrative centre to another. It makes no sense to believe caps attributed to just one firm alone were made outside the areas served by the Berlin Army clothing depot(s). For this reason, and based on other critical and objective criteria, I do not believe these other caps were made in 1940."



However, as you say back to the CW black panzer cap which started this. My feeling is still the same as it was in post number 17 " I am on the fence and following the discussion with interest,

Chris

[Mark Gibson]

Hello Tim,

this excellent thread sums up how I feel about 1940 CW tropical caps in any form;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=Dal

Chris

Chris,
I agree with the Author of the attached thread that 1940 dated CW tropical M40 caps do not exist, but this is my own opinion based on the poor examples that have continued to be given up for display as original. It isn't based on a "I'm with this well regarded collectors camp and not this other well regarded collectors camp" as has been claimed by some believers in the 1940 CW M40. If a cap does not stand a chance of being original from pure observation than I'm not going to believe it to be okay. I'm getting off topic but just wanted to say that as I've been quiet for too long over this.
As for the panzer example that started this thread, well I actually would not feel comfortable with it in my collection because I just don't think that it is original. That is only my opinion.

Mark

[90th Light]

Chris,
I agree with the Author of the attached thread that 1940 dated CW tropical M40 caps do not exist, but this is my own opinion based on the poor examples that have continued to be given up for display as original. It isn't based on a "I'm with this well regarded collectors camp and not this other well regarded collectors camp" as has been claimed by some believers in the 1940 CW M40. If a cap does not stand a chance of being original from pure observation than I'm not going to believe it to be okay. I'm getting off topic but just wanted to say that as I've been quiet for too long over this.
As for the panzer example that started this thread, well I actually would not feel comfortable with it in my collection because I just don't think that it is original. That is only my opinion.

Mark

Cheers Mark,

I do not think any well regarded collectors in any camp wanted me.

Ok I will change what I just posted here. A couple collectors have contacted me with what they feel is new evidence concerning the CW tropical billed caps. I will wait and evaluate that before I say more. However I am not holding my breath. As far as the 1940 tropical examples go by this maker IMO there is still no real evidence.

I am making a list of the "pros" and "cons" in regard to the panzer sidecap that started this thread. Put simply, I need to see more black panzer sidecaps by this maker which so far have not been forthcoming,

Chris