Panzer EM/NCO Overseas cap by Clemens Wagner

[Tim O'Keefe]

Lucky that is an outstanding original cap. Is it possible the stamp reads Braunschweig Hamburg, not just Braunschweig ? The stamp with the thin font on your cap looks very close to the style stamp used on the CW tropical caps made in Hamburg (with the Braunschweig Hamburg stamp) and the letter spacing is further to the left to allow for the word Hamburg, when compared to William's example and Galizien41's which are quite similar to each other in both thicker font and letter spacing is more even with the CW across the top than on your cap. I think maybe your cap was made in Hamburg and these others possibly in Braunschweig.

The washers applied backwords actually helps Williams example imo.

& Chris what is your opinion on this cap ? anyone else ??

[90th Light]

Lucky that is an outstanding original cap. Is it possible the stamp reads Braunschweig Hamburg, not just Braunschweig ? The stamp with the thin font on your cap looks very close to the style stamp used on the CW tropical caps made in Hamburg (with the Braunschweig Hamburg stamp) and the letter spacing is further to the left to allow for the word Hamburg, when compared to William's example and Galizien41's which are quite similar to each other in both thicker font and letter spacing is more even with the CW across the top than on your cap. I think maybe your cap was made in Hamburg and these others possibly in Braunschweig.

The washers applied backwords actually helps Williams example imo.

& Chris what is your opinion on this cap ? anyone else ??

I am on the fence Tim,

until I see more examples made by "Clemens Wagner Braunschweig" There appear to be at least two clear divisions to this company and we need to study the footprints/ fonts of both.

Anyway here is an interesting example that Bill Shea has for sale his site at the moment http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPa...rhdgr/hg78.htm

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Chris,

Thanks for posting Bill's LW CW Mechanic cap. The letter "s" in Clemen(s) and Braun(s)chweig line up on all three, Williams & Galizien41' & Bills examples. On Lucky's cap the"s" in Braunschweig lines up on the 2nd "e" in Clem(e)ns not the"s".

Here is another cap made in Braunschweig. This time a tropical sidecap belonging to our member Raymond with the stamp with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval....Post # 762 - #764 Cap is Dated October '42. Again the two "s" line up on each other.

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...213638&page=51

"The Collector's Guide to Cloth Third Reich Military Headgear by Gary Wilkins has a lot of information on Clemens Wagner including several ads of theirs which detail the fact that Hamburg was their "branch factory" and Braunschweig was their main factory. "Betriebsleitung nur Braunschweig" in that four line stamp means "Administration only at Braunschweig." Some of the CW tropical sidecaps are stamped with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval including one Wilkins shows that is dated 1943. They were using it in 1940, on SS wool sidecaps,"

Agree more study is needed on both factorys using the CW stamp and there difference's....still on the fence myself.

[LuckyStrike23]

Lucky that is an outstanding original cap. Is it possible the stamp reads Braunschweig Hamburg, not just Braunschweig ?

Te stamp is nearly faded away. I will try to answer your question tomorrow when I am back home.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Te stamp is nearly faded away. I will try to answer your question tomorrow when I am back home.

Thanks, look forwards to it, wonderful cap

[90th Light]

That cap which you have provided a link to Tim,

is an important find in all of this so I am adding a couple of images of "Raymond's" cap to this thread so others can see it,

Chris

p.s. machine or hand applied badges. May be 50/50 ?

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thanks again Chris. Eagle on Raymonds cap is hand sewn similar to other CW tropical caps.

Interesting to note that CW was hand sewing eagles on their tropical caps & European sidecaps from '39-42,. But the zip & flip method was used on one of their Pz caps from the same time period

[all1knew]

For reference, a better shot of the stamp and a photo showing a very similar date font on a B-H cap.

[LuckyStrike23]

Thanks, look forwards to it, wonderful cap

Unfortunatel its not possible to read it. But comparing my stamp with the others (especually where the word "Braunschweig" is) I guess my cap is indeed a "Clemens Wagner - Braunschweig, Hamburg".

[Tim O'Keefe]

Unfortunatel its not possible to read it. But comparing my stamp with the others (especually where the word "Braunschweig" is) I guess my cap is indeed a "Clemens Wagner - Braunschweig, Hamburg".

Thankyou for confirmation. It does fit the profile of the CW BH tropical version. Classic grommets, insignia application etc.
So am sure your cap came from the branch factory in Hamburg. While these others with just the Braunschweig stamp were produced in the main CW factory in Braunschweig.

Interesting to note that most of the surviving tropical CW sidecaps (beehive cache) were also made in Hamburg, while the CW tropenhelms and most of the CW tropical M40's are from Braunschweig, with at least one surviving tropical M40 made in Hamburg. The surviving European sidecaps appear to have been made in both locations. Wonder what is the situation with all those CW visors ?

Still think Williams threadstarter has a chance ?

[all1knew]

A trend that both Bill Shea's and my cap have in common. Both of the linings have this "railroad" or "zipper" pattern in the weave.

[all1knew]

Here's one I came across today:

http://militarycollectiblesinc.com/c...oducts_id=4692

Will post photos for reference.

William Kramer

[all1knew]

2

[drempfer]

Good discussion, but I don't believe it's original. The stamp doesn't look like accepted originals!

[Tim O'Keefe]

Good discussion, but I don't believe it's original. The stamp doesn't look like accepted originals!

Disagree the Braunschweig stamp is accepted as original. Its the main CW factory. The Hamburg Braunschweig stamp is from the smaller outlet factory.

There is no agreement on these few CW examples except the concensus leans towards them being fake.

We just can not get any proof that CW made the black Pz sidcap. But seems very likely that CW did make the Pz cap as CW was a prolific cap maker.

Personally would like to hear more discussion on these CW Pz caps.....