M-43 panzer

[90th Light]

hello,

comparizon between green and black M43 caps is a good method IMHO, particulary in their variations in construction or a contrario with their common criterias.
it seems that some original green ones have only a size marking;
so from this point of wiew, logicaly this lack of rbnr or rfnr and of any informations about maker and date should be found at least on some black M43 too ?
in another simple words, should lack of stampings except size be considered on black M43 as an absolute redflag ?

derka

Hello derka,

not in my book. I actually believe the RB/ RF system started to suffer under the pressure of the bombing and Speer's logical short cuts to increase productivity. Keep in mind that Germany finally reached the outer limits of its productivity curve in 1944. Something which should have happened in 1940.

All very nice to RB & RF number things but in 1944 they realised that the Russians were coming to a town near them soon and with factories disappearing over night it was not always possible to get a number in time.

Bureaucracy always lags behind reality and it would not be long during 1944 before they could pass them out the factory window or blown hole in the wall to the soldiers fighting on the front line. Those who had numbers and the stamps would of course have keep using them but what about those who did not have a number or were awaiting feedback on theirs. You certainly do not stop production and wait (also why no numbers in SS M43 caps so the logistical system must have been able to cope without them ?)

There is also a strong case that the offices that handled the allocation of RB/RF numbers were bombed out of existance (the fire storms ?). What is strange today is that we do know the contract numbers for IBM's supply of their tabulators to concentration camps, many of the inmates and the routines of such camps but we know almost nothing about how the Germans numbered the manufacturing of their uniforms and equipment from late 1942 onwards. Sort of strange when you stop and think about it because the Germans kept such detailed and complete records but so far no major finds on this one so what happened to them ?

There are definitely original WH M43's both Panzer black and field grey out there with out RB/ RF numbers and the cap which started this thread just might be one of them,

Chris

[derka]

re,
Chris, we know at least some good informations about the rbnr system, even if we don't know all numbers used.
but i agree when you indicate :"There are definitely original WH M43's both Panzer black and field grey out there with out RB/ RF numbers ".
derka

[90th Light]

re,
Chris, we know at least some good informations about the rbnr system, even if we don't know all numbers used.
but i agree when you indicate :"There are definitely original WH M43's both Panzer black and field grey out there with out RB/ RF numbers ".
derka

Hello again derka,

true some material does exist so not every one of their offices was lost but I have never ever seen a really useful listing of any of the numbers and what they mean. May be some thing has now surfaced from hoped for Russian sources ?

Has more been found and is it possible to view it ???

Happy to admit if I am not up to speed, in fact I would be delighted to learn more because this is of real interest for me as well as others.

Look forward to any news you might be able to share,

Chris

[Leroy]

There was a very useful discussion on RBNr's recently and KMSpain very graciously made available a listing of many of them (which runs to over 100 pages!). See: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...65#post3189165

[90th Light]

Wow, thanks derka & Leroy

this is indeed more than I have seen before. This is an exciting find some real pieces to the puzzle.

Will be interesting to see if any industries owned by the SS are listed there which would prove SS use of such numbers (my feelings at this stage is that they may not be listed).

When one sees how many firms were covered then you can appreciate the administration/ communication challenges involved.

Many, many thanks, Chris

[BenVK]

Keep an eye on the thread about RB.Nr's.

Another myth blown out the water.

[billbert]

Well someone besides myself very much believed this cap could be real..as its got a new owner now via the e stand.. Billbert

[Gene]

At half the price of what it's worth too

[90th Light]

Well someone besides myself very much believed this cap could be real..as its got a new owner now via the e stand.. Billbert

You were not alone Billbert. I too tried to get those reading this to focus on that possibility.

Excellent thread, Chris

[billbert]

Amongst other items ever seen a fake panzer m43 with field grey buttons?? Billbert

[90th Light]

Amongst other items ever seen a fake panzer m43 with field grey buttons?? Billbert

Many times in my book Billbert, you prove yourself to be one of the more experienced collectors who posts on this section of the forum. I totally agree.

and I will answer your question with a question, ever seen a Panzer M40 sidecap with field-grey grommets ???

Yet some time back such a cap was declared fake on this forum by those who should have known better.

Good observation and best regards, Chris

[billbert]

Thanks much..many know MUCH more but all are students of the hobby..more funner than stamps and coins and SOMETIMES more expensive..JMHO Billbert

[nonameno]

Hello Chris,
To you question about a black overseas cap with field gray grommets, yes I used to own one. It was very early, dated 1940, with continental insignia. It was a fantastic one looker, which unfortunatly, I traded to an advanced collector towards an M36 tunic.
Thank you,
Curtiss

[90th Light]

Hello Chris,
To you question about a black overseas cap with field gray grommets, yes I used to own one. It was very early, dated 1940, with continental insignia. It was a fantastic one looker, which unfortunatly, I traded to an advanced collector towards an M36 tunic.
Thank you,
Curtiss

I have just caught up with this Curtiss and agree totally there are definitely period Panzer M40 sidecaps with field gray grommets but they are not common and many have not seen one.

In fact that would be an interesting thread would it not ?

Chris