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**shinerb** · 04-22-2009, 09:29 PM

Ron,

I'm glad you are questioning here. We all learn when this happens. Actually, you had a pretty good story on how you acquired it. I've been looking for a nice M43 Heer for a while and when I started going back looking at old threads the most common comment was "I don't like it". That helps nothing.

**BenVK** · 04-23-2009, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by Luca Ongaro View Post

No sarcasm here Ben, right?
Personally I am always interested to know what Chris think about PZ caps then ... no one knows for sure nothing.
Luca

It's an old British tradition, it's called, taking the piss.

**90th Light** · 04-23-2009, 08:37 AM

Well I suppose some guys have become well known for their one liners. Looks like I am becoming known for my many lines.

I have to say piss or no piss, I am flattered to be asked for my opinion. Sort of figured you guys might have needed a rest

Any way suckers for punishment, here goes;

Very hard to comment on a cap which I can not have a hands on. Things are always different when you handle an M43 like the feel of the wool. Lativan fakes for example always have what I consider a naylon feel so there is my first question how does the wool feel to touch and how does it compare with known originals ?

What people are calling private purchase is slightly incorrect. In my opinion it is more likely to be an example from a small maker or a cottage industry. As the war went on the LAGO makers for example had a real advantage in that they could fall back easily to a smaller economy of scale and a lot of stuff was literally put together in backyards at the end. A larger manufacturer like "Carl Halfar" for example ( wonder how that came to mind so quickly

) would have had a far greater challenge had their factories been bombed out of existance because they would then had to have set up again somewhere else. "Juncker" is a good example of a company which faced this challenge to keep going. The LAGO's and cottage makers were all over the place so they only lost a replaceable part of their production process never the whole thing. This cap may well be an example of one of these smaller makers which could explain the absense or lack of an RB or RF number (could be from one of the makers never assigned a number for one reason or the other).

I have to be honest, I do not see any "straight away red flags" so may-be some could build a bit on their one liners and we could discuss points of concern in more detail. Sometimes when you look at a computer image it is a trick of perception. Some see the ugly old hag saying fake and other see the beautiful Edwardian lady looking side ways saying original (hope you guys know the picture I am talking about)

Just picking up on one observation made so far about the pull down tabs, do we have a standard size for these. I have never measured the length of the ones in my M43's but its not a bad idea (must do it and see what I find). In regard to these ones, they would do the job. Better too long than too short. Keep in mind that some factories/ makers were struggling to get skilled staff by 1943 onwards and that could be a likely explaination. Not hard for a faker to measure that and get it right.

On this forum we are very very hard on Panzer field caps and rightly so but at what stage does being an absolute purist cloud the judgement of a period variation or something not exactly seen before. We often ask why so few original Panzer M43's and it is good question but I have also often wondered if the Panzer M43's were done as there own specialist runs in the factories in limited batches or contracts often assigned to smaller makers and hence sometimes variation from the more regular WH M43 ??? (Just a thought at this stage)

In my opinion as many of you will be picking up, I think the cap has a chance but would need a hands on to say more. Some thing appeals to me strongly about how it was obtained, 9 out of 10 times when that has happened to me at shows the item has been 100%. Often directly from a veteran/ their family or some of the best door knockers/ hawks in the game (a classic find, was my friend who got a green DAK pack off his best door knocker, they haggled over the price a bit and when it was all over the "knocker" left and my friend opened up the pack, reached in and pulled out the best set of first model green all web DAK Y-straps I have ever seen. Said he knew something was in there but he dare not look until the deal was done. The "knocker" must have assumed they were just part of the pack. Said he had got the pack off an old lady earlier that day) .

Will stop here, see what others think and wait for the flak guns followed by heavy artillery.

Best regards, Chris

**djpool** · 04-23-2009, 09:25 AM

Chris,

There is certainly no need for you to apologize. Your one of the few folks that actually provide detailed discussions on the items being discussed. I've certainly learned a lot from you. Maybe short "one liner" evaluations work for the old timers, but for new collectors your comments are geared towards teaching and learning. Isn't that one of the major goals of the forum. Behind every "old time" collector theres some one like you who went that extra mile to help. WR Jim

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Well I suppose some guys have become well known for their one liners. Looks like I am becoming known for my many lines.

I have to say piss or no piss, I am flattered to be asked for my opinion. Sort of figured you guys might have needed a rest

Any way suckers for punishment, here goes;

Very hard to comment on a cap which I can not have a hands on. Things are always different when you handle an M43 like the feel of the wool. Lativan fakes for example always have what I consider a naylon feel so there is my first question how does the wool feel to touch and how does it compare with known originals ?

What people are calling private purchase is slightly incorrect. In my opinion it is more likely to be an example from a small maker or a cottage industry. As the war went on the LAGO makers for example had a real advantage in that they could fall back easily to a smaller economy of scale and a lot of stuff was literally put together in backyards at the end. A larger manufacturer like "Carl Halfar" for example ( wonder how that came to mind so quickly

) would have had a far greater challenge had their factories been bombed out of existance because they would then had to have set up again somewhere else. "Juncker" is a good example of a company which faced this challenge to keep going. The LAGO's and cottage makers were all over the place so they only lost a replaceable part of their production process never the whole thing. This cap may well be an example of one of these smaller makers which could explain the absense or lack of an RB or RF number (could be from one of the makers never assigned a number for one reason or the other).

I have to be honest, I do not see any "straight away red flags" so may-be some could build a bit on their one liners and we could discuss points of concern in more detail. Sometimes when you look at a computer image it is a trick of perception. Some see the ugly old hag saying fake and other see the beautiful Edwardian lady looking side ways saying original (hope you guys know the picture I am talking about)

Just picking up on one observation made so far about the pull down tabs, do we have a standard size for these. I have never measured the length of the ones in my M43's but its not a bad idea (must do it and see what I find). In regard to these ones, they would do the job. Better too long than too short. Keep in mind that some factories/ makers were struggling to get skilled staff by 1943 onwards and that could be a likely explaination. Not hard for a faker to measure that and get it right.

On this forum we are very very hard on Panzer field caps and rightly so but at what stage does being an absolute purist cloud the judgement of a period variation or something not exactly seen before. We often ask why so few original Panzer M43's and it is good question but I have also often wondered if the Panzer M43's were done as there own specialist runs in the factories in limited batches or contracts often assigned to smaller makers and hence sometimes variation from the more regular WH M43 ??? (Just a thought at this stage)

In my opinion as many of you will be picking up, I think the cap has a chance but would need a hands on to say more. Some thing appeals to me strongly about how it was obtained, 9 out of 10 times when that has happened to me at shows the item has been 100%. Often directly from a veteran/ their family or some of the best door knockers/ hawks in the game.

Will stop here, see what others think and wait for the flak guns followed by heavy artillery.

Best regards, Chris

**BenVK** · 04-23-2009, 02:47 PM

Another reason why we're so hard on Pz caps is because it's exceptionally difficult to judge black cloth just from looking at digital images. Very few Pz M43's are ever going to be passed fit by everyone on this forum for that reason alone.

The question of RB of RF numbers is an interesting one though. If you look at all the non Pz, enlisted ranks Heer and Luftwaffe M43's ever posted that everyone felt comfortable with, I'd say 90% of them had a RB or RF number. When looking at Pz M43's, we should really be expecting to see the same stamps in these caps as well, shouldn't we? Just a thought but it seems that 90% of the enlisted Pz M43 we see are not RB of RF stamped, the completely opposite trend. Doesn't really make sense does it even if you factor in the fact that Chris mentioned that not all makers were assigned a number. Why would the majority of Pz caps we see to this day come from these smaller makers where as the opposite is true for all the other branches of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe?

I don't know the answer but it's an interesting question. Panzer troops certainly did have the element of considering themselves an elite branch of the armed forces and were more likely I believe for all ranks to source alternative sources for their uniforms but I don't think that really covers it.
Much more likely IMO is that an authentic Pz M43 IS really as rare as we are lead to believe. Try and find one in period photo for example, not an easy task by any means. For every 100 sidecaps you see, you might find one or two M43's.

**Mike Davis** · 04-23-2009, 03:59 PM

This thread may be of interest. Sometimes it just isn't that hard to make a call.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=M43

**billbert** · 04-23-2009, 04:40 PM

Thanks Mike Davis.. And so it goes.... Billbert

**BenVK** · 04-23-2009, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Mike Davis View Post

Sometimes it just isn't that hard to make a call.

A rare cap but not in your house Mike!

Are the other 2 RB numbered as well?

**Mike Davis** · 04-23-2009, 05:05 PM

I don't understand the comment. All with RBNr.

**Gene** · 04-23-2009, 05:30 PM

I think Ben means that despite being rare, they are seemingly quite plentiful at casa de Mike

**Mike Davis** · 04-23-2009, 06:01 PM

Ah so - thanks.

Well, I have just a fraction compared to some that view but post very little or don't post at all. If only they could be drawn out a bit we could all learn a great deal.

**Lenny W** · 04-23-2009, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Mike Davis View Post

Ah so - thanks.

Well, I have just a fraction compared to some that view but post very little or don't post at all. If only they could be drawn out a bit we could all learn a great deal.

**Lenny W** · 04-23-2009, 07:44 PM

The question of RB of RF numbers is an interesting one though. If you look at all the non Pz, enlisted ranks Heer and Luftwaffe M43's ever posted that everyone felt comfortable with, I'd say 90% of them had a RB or RF number. When looking at Pz M43's, we should really be expecting to see the same stamps in these caps as well, shouldn't we? Just a thought but it seems that 90% of the enlisted Pz M43 we see are not RB of RF stamped, the completely opposite trend. Doesn't really make sense does it even if you factor in the fact that Chris mentioned that not all makers were assigned a number. Why would the majority of Pz caps we see to this day come from these smaller makers where as the opposite is true for all the other branches of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe?

good point Ben i would expect em panzer m-43 caps to made the same way as heer,luftwaffe m-43 caps and marked in the same manner (they are the same caps but in black wool) with variations between makers

**90th Light** · 04-23-2009, 08:39 PM

Mike posting a link of those images of his best of the best Panzer M43's amusingly reminds me of the situation one sees when a bunch of guys are standing around discussing something in detail and one or more perfect females goes past in the perfect attire beautifully presented. True "eye-candy" M43 Panzers for sure.

We might just have stumbled on more than we realise here;

Is an early 43/44 Panzer M43 more likely to have an RB or RF number than a later one 44/45 ?

The Panzer M43 does not seem to have been as popular as the M40 sidecap for obvious reasons depending upon which job you did in a tank. Does this support my point about LAGO/ cottage production verses big economy production ? (no need for the large quantities so not made as often by the big firms or specialist run only)

Is there a parallel between a lot of Panzer M43's we see on this forum having a size only marking and almost all SS M43 having a size only marking ? Many advanced collectors do not like an SS M43 with RB or RF numbers. In a good thread about this, some collectors (I think it was Bob.H.) stated that they did however have some SS camo items with only a number but no RB/RF prefix in front. Notice Mikes M43's do not seem to have a prefix. Interesting and what does that mean ?

How many beyond doubt RB or RF numberd Panzer M43's do we know of. Ben makes the point that seeing a Panzer M43 with an RB/ RF number on this forum is a rare sight. I know they were popular as work caps after the war but you would still expect to see more that you do with reapplied insignia. Would you not ? (May-be the advanced collectors could do a tally of the carefully guarded originals and give us some idea of the ratio).

Important to also point out that the Panzer M43 is an easier M43 for the faker to have a go at making plus the possible premium they stand to make is higher. A close looking black wool is not as difficult to get your hands on as field grey wool and hence many who have collected these with passion are always on their guard expecting most of what they accept & collect to be nothing more than a black clone of their field grey examples (Mike's caps show this too effect) The point I have always tried to make is, are we being too tough, too cautious/ prudent. Have we condemned some to the rubbish bin unfairly and too fast ? Do we in fact fully understand the beast because if you are going to make a fake then it is not hard to make a fake RB or RF stamp esp. when we have no real reference to check them by except another cap with the same number.

I appreciate you all giving me a hearing on this and no I am not trying to be the patron saint of fake M43's, I am trying to make sure we have as many of the facts as is possible before we make a decision. Some original items are being written off when they should not and that worries me. In the end history is history and we are the guys (plus the veterans who brought it back) who have done a great job of saving this stuff from the fire when other so called well informed members of our society would have got rid of it long ago.

Lets now make sure that we do not also commit their sins for a different reasons of ignorant fear or being in the too hard basket. May be we need to be more tolerant of some "may-be M43's" rather than always seeking certainity. I do not ever in my wildest dreams see some of these "may-be M43's" making the prices of the "beyond doubt examples" but like it or not this will be the entry level of M43's for many collectors. I mean you have to have a taste already to pay US $2500 to US $7500 for a cap. Of course as more proof and understanding comes to light then prices reflect this but the reality is that some of these "may-be caps" are not all bad.

Kind regards, Chris

**derka** · 04-24-2009, 02:34 AM

hello,

comparizon between green and black M43 caps is a good method IMHO, particulary in their variations in construction or a contrario with their common criterias.
it seems that some original green ones have only a size marking;
so from this point of wiew, logicaly this lack of rbnr or rfnr and of any informations about maker and date should be found at least on some black M43 too ?
in another simple words, should lack of stampings except size be considered on black M43 as an absolute redflag ?

derka

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