Panzer m43

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Chris,
Are you OK? If "advanced" collectors can't tell on this forum who has a good feel for original items and who is blowing smoke out their *&%$, who cares? It's up to the reader to determine "internet legend" or "forum folklore", most I have seen that blow off the forums as not knowing what they are talking about are people who have been "outed" in the hobby for having sold fakes or have some fake items in their collection and can't face the facts (ie. they are in denial). You are contorting yourself bending over backwards like a Chinese acrobat checking for cellulite, trying to justify this cap. It's like trying to explain color to a blind man. Your logic is convoluted with things outside of this cap that you are running off in every direction possible.
THE CAP IS 100% FAKE. LOOK AT IT! I HAVE SEEN ORIGINAL Panzer M43 CAPS. THIS ISN'T ONE. IT"S NOT EVEN A GOOD FAKE.
Scott is not obligated to, since it was on the estand a while ago, but if he wants to , he can offer to refund the money and take the cap back. There is no harm done, people make mistakes.

Gerard

Hello Jacques,

I am certainly happy with the two which I posted images of and I know where they both came from.

As for the one that Scott sold you, well I am not so sure because I can not have a hands on but I know also that Scott has seen a lot.

I can see however that you are reading between the lines and feeling like you have been sold a lemon but why would Scott do that and especially via the e-stand ? He knows the rules and anyway that sort of thing sells ok on ebay if you cover up the nasty badge.

You see, I know that several advanced or knowledgeable collectors feel worn down by what they call "forum folklore or collector myths" and they just can not be bothered any more trying to argue with us or share their experience to only be told how can that be so or they are confused. Some post here no longer and others have refused to ever post .

I have experienced this recently myself over the ball hinge glider badge and was going to post images but then thought what good will that do. Seemingly the veteran I bought it from was telling tales so there you are. The sad thing is I was there when I bought it off the veteran and he was a noble man who had no reason what so ever to put a fake badge amongst the 20 originals I bought off him that day. You just reach a point however where it is no good trying to explain this to the forum any more. The ball hinge glider has been declared fake and that is that.

I fear the Carl Halfar M43's have fallen into the same pit. Someone some where said that all Carl Halfar Panzer M43's are bad and that is that. Those who say they are bad try to rationalise their decisions the same way that those who say are good. Seems east is east on this one and west is west and the twain shall never meet.

Yet I have gone all over that Carl Halfar panzer M43 which I posted images of and it passes every test that I can throw at it. The next step is to look at every example of a Carl Halfar M43 that I can get my hands and this is what I am doing.

Where this leaves you with your cap I do not know except to say that you feel very un-easy to the point of discomfort and I can understand that. As I have already stated some things do not seem to be the same as on my ones but on the other hand some other features do but overall I feel there are certain differences.

I do agree with you however that it would be helpful if Scott would respond here because I seem to now be defending some thing which is not really my concern except for the fact that I would really like to see as many original Carl Halfar M43's as is possible.

Sadly so far there have been no more except for what I have posted but who knows may be this might get it going.

Hope this explains and best regards, Chris

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Chris,
Is this your cap? From the photos, it looks exactly the same. I believe it is probably the same type of cap, with added bias material and added Russian stampings.

Gerard

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=217846

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ubangi

Always ready to inject a little levity, please note the large lips of the Ubangi Tribal Woman who possesses thicky "piped" lips.

[90th Light]

Only Carl Halfar M43s I have seen were Org. Todt, possibley other civil types, not military that I can think of, but I would not put it out of the realm of possibility. One think we are also missing is that the faker didn't realize that an "issue" army or luft M43 DOESN"T LOOK LIKE THIS. Enlisted caps are "issue", what is this thing, some sort of private purchase.
I don't think Scott has examined "100s of M43s", otherwise he would not have bought or sold this. Your logic makes no sense. If you believe he is a good judge of them, you buy this cap, if original, it's worth thousands.
What collectors should do is handle lots of originals and get a feal for original M43s. That's how it's done.
What's with the "shame to me" and "better left unsaid"? Let's keep the drama out of this.

Gerard

Well I seem to have pulled your cord Gerard

The drama is all yours my friend. Are we still in Act 1 or are we now up to Act 2 ???

Have a nice day, Chris

[90th Light]

Chris,
Are you OK? If "advanced" collectors can't tell on this forum who has a good feel for original items and who is blowing smoke out their *&%$, who cares? It's up to the reader to determine "internet legend" or "forum folklore", most I have seen that blow off the forums as not knowing what they are talking about are people who have been "outed" in the hobby for having sold fakes. You are contorting yourself bending over backwards like a Chinese acrobat checking for cellulite, trying to justify this cap. It's like trying to explain color to a blind man. Your logic is convoluted with things outside of this cap that you are running off in every direction possible.
THE CAP IS 100% FAKE. LOOK AT IT! I HAVE SEEN ORIGINAL Panzer M43 CAPS. THIS ISN'T ONE. IT"S NOT EVEN A GOOD FAKE.
Scott is not obligated to, since it was on the estand a while ago, but if he wants to , he can offer to refund the money and take the cap back. There is no harm done, people make mistakes.

Gerard

I am not justifying the cap. How can I do that with out a hands on inspection ???

I was asking if there were other examples of Carl Halfar M43's out there which we could compare with and I have gone to the trouble of posting two examples myself.

I was also making the comment that Scott has a lot of experience and I have found his observations of Panzer caps to have both insight and good detailed points of comparison.

At the end of the day none of us knows it all nor ever will and it is not my worry if the cap which started all this is good or bad.

And yes I did mention a Ball hinge glider as an example of a piece of Third Reich Militaria where we have got it wrong and declared a real piece of history bad when it is not.

Now that I think about such examples of mis-information it also brings to mind "RS" badges and the days back in the 1970's and 1980's when everyone said that every example of those was wrong if it had rounded letters. We have had to rethink that one have we not.

Well who knows further down the track we may have to rethink Carl Halfar Panzer M43's then again we might be right in what we are saying now. Could also be the case that there are in fact original examples and also reasonable fakes of the originals

The point is that if we do not investigate this further and keep checking then how do we know if we have got it right.

There is no crime in double checking what we suddenly take for granted as gospel. This is how knowledge is advanced over time,

Chris

[90th Light]

Chris,
Is this your cap? From the photos, it looks exactly the same. I believe it is probably the same type of cap, with added bias material and added Russian stampings.

Gerard

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=217846

The cap pictured in this thread to which you refer is not my cap but it is very similar to my cap except that my one does not have a hand applied eagle.

My eagle is machine applied and not as thread-bare round the eagle because the eagle on mine has never been off. Also mine has no Russian capture marks and real wear on the liner.

My one did not come from Russia.

I have felt that the cap in this thread to which you have posted a link has real possibilities but the badges have been reapplied,

Chris

[Gene]

Chris,

If Jacques' cap was offered to you for $2500 and you had the money to spend, would you buy it? Yes or no.

Gene

[Jeff V]

Also, I would like to clarify that Chris clearly misspoke when he said earlier that the forum had declared his ball-hinge glider a fake. It most certainly did not. Several people, including Gene and myself, both said it was an original.
best wishes,
jeff

[90th Light]

Chris,

If Jacques' cap was offered to you for $2500 and you had the money to spend, would you buy it? Yes or no.

Gene

Hello Gene,

If I was offered the cap which Jacques has purchased from Scott and I could compare it with mine then I would hesitate to pay $2500 for it and would not pay that price for that example

but my whole point in posting here has been to also try and offer Jacques something tangible to compare with to see if what he has is right or wrong.

The other point I am making is that all Carl Halfar Panzer M43's have been dismissed as bad and this for me is the real point of debate in all of this. They may in fact not all be bad. The one I have here shows every sign of being right and compares well with the Organisation of Todt cap by the same maker.

Two points against the one which I have posted are the fact that it has a full makers name and a lining material which is not usually encountered. In every other way it measures up, And while I mention the liner material it is worth pointing out that this type of material is sometimes encountered on the reverse of the tongue of enlisted/nco shoulder boards but is not common.

I am not defending Jacques's cap except to say that Scott has experience with these. I am saying however that Carl Halfar could very well have made Panzer M43's which I have an example of.

Regards, Chris

[90th Light]

Also, I would like to clarify that Chris clearly misspoke when he said earlier that the forum had declared his ball-hinge glider a fake. It most certainly did not. Several people, including Gene and myself, both said it was an original.
best wishes,
jeff

Fair call Jeff and I do owe you an apology for not mentioning your support in that argument. There were also other esteemed members of the forum who said they thought the badge was right as well.

The problem is however that the author of one of the best books on these badges accepts none of what we have said so far because no one has a photo or other proof so what is one to do and prices of these badges on the market at present also do not reflect belief in them.

All this adds up to show me however just how wrong some experts can be sometimes and that we need to always question and stay vigilant in the search for what is real.

Many thanks, Chris

[NZMark]

Chris,
You MUST buy yourself a digital camera at some point...
Regards,
Mark

[90th Light]

Chris,
You MUST buy yourself a digital camera at some point...
Regards,
Mark

Hello Mark, you are right of course but I have had some images posted here by "ebony" showing the two Carl Halfar which I believe to be correct.

The interesting thing is that very little at all has been mentioned about the finer points of those caps, The whole thing basically went dead after I arranged to have the images posted. Barely a "dicky-bird" from any where.

How should one interpret such silence, consensus, confirmation, contempt or confusion ?

The point is that those photos show what a real-deal Carl Halfar should look like but was posting such images a wise thing to do.

Probably not because it would now seem that I have more knockers than friends on this one but is it right that a cap be declared generically fake with out any in depth study or comparison with known originals.

At the end of the day, Carl Halfar was a large hat and cap maker by German standards back then. I mean look at how many tropical M40's they made. Not exactly an uncommon maker so does it not seem strange that they were not into making M43's and if they were not making many M43's at that stage in history then what were they making ???

also allow for the fact that they had more than one factory in more than one city

Questions which beg answers in my book,

Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

the two Carl Halfar which I believe to be correct.


The point is that those photos show what a real-deal Carl Halfar should look like but was posting such images a wise thing to do.


Chris

Your comparing fakes to fakes for the black Luft hat is not original...Org Todt looks like it is probably legit.


Just an opinion from one "Dicky bird"



Glenn

[Gene]

Chris,

There seems to be two mitigating factors here for you: 1, a Carl Halfar stamp and 2, Scott's reputation. Aside from those two things, and based on hands-on inspection of the cap, will you now judge the cap itself and it's attributes of construction, materials and insignia? In other words can you put aside the two sticking points you have and see what others have seen?

Gene

PS- I believe the ball hinge glider badge is completely WW2 in manufacture

[90th Light]

Chris,

There seems to be two mitigating factors here for you: 1, a Carl Halfar stamp and 2, Scott's reputation. Aside from those two things, and based on hands-on inspection of the cap, will you now judge the cap itself and it's attributes of construction, materials and insignia? In other words can you put aside the two sticking points you have and see what others have seen?

Gene

PS- I believe the ball hinge glider badge is completely WW2 in manufacture

Hello Gene,

I am not trying to defend the cap which started this thread i.e. the one which Jacques purchased from Scott. I actually do accept many of the observations which Gerard has shared although I suspect from his reaction that he may have thought I was having a go at him. That was not my intention, I was interested in why he had come to some of the conclusions that he had come to. Well in his own way he certainly explained that.

No,I can accept that the cap which Scott sold Jacques may in fact be bad and that certain indicators are pointing in that direction. If this is the case then I am very surprised that Scott would sell it to him via the estand regardless of how long ago it was. I can also understand Jacques feeling ripped off and do agree with him that Scott adding to this thread would have at least helped us all understand. In fact it is surprising that this cap did not get put up for discussion when it was on the estand.

We are all left wondering what Scott knows that we do not ????

Really it becomes very hard for me to comment further about Jacques's cap (Scott's ex-cap) with out a proper hands on inspection.

Another thing which now bothers me about this is if he did in fact pay US$2500 for it. Please tell me that is not true.

Please confirm if I have this correct and it was the cap which started this which you wanted me to comment on further or did you want me to analyse my one in greater detail. If its my one then no problem just tell me what points you want me to get stuck into,

Chris

p.s. many thanks for your vote of confidence on the Ball Hinge Glider. I value your opinion