General Sonderklasse

[Kreager]

I would like to make one more OBVIOUS point. Take a look at the wear and condition of the Vulcan fiber visor and sweatband then look at the condition of the lining and pasteboard. Especially under the sweatband. This should be an OBVIOUS red flag to even the novice.

It does tend to make things not so trivial.

In the long run, if the owner is happy with the piece, enjoy it. If you think it's good, that's all that matters.

[NTZ]

The fake Erel's that I am pointing out are in generals rank 90% of the time. When not they are in the form of rare diplo's or other rare caps. Same goes for the Mullers. They are both made by the same hands. I have looked at many in hand.

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Okay... here is an other fake EREL from the same tailor.
It's an copperbrown piping (Kradschützen) with an CW sweatband, but the same style, material and tailor handwriting.
Compare this one with the EREL general!!!

Hope this helps....

This is a good thread.

However, the copper brown cap does NOT have a CW sweatband, it is a SCHELLENBERG.

The hole pattern confirms this, But even more so, the WHITE material behind the band is SCHELLENBERG's Stirndrukfrei system.

J T

[NTZ]

This is a good thread.

However, the copper brown cap does NOT have a CW sweatband, it is a SCHELLENBERG.

The hole pattern confirms this, But even more so, the WHITE material behind the band is SCHELLENBERG's Stirndrukfrei system.

J T

Right on the money JT

[Rick C]

Gentlemen,

This is like an old movie about Senator Joe McCarthy and his hearings on un-American activities. Rather than a Commie under every bed let’s work real hard to find fault (anything) with this poor guy’s cap.

Clearly, it’s “bad-to-the-bone”, it’s “completely fake”, artificially aged and “you’ll be the last owner of that repro”! Heck, Kreager sums it up for us: “the same old outcome ‘Doh’”

We’re told to “take a look” at wear & condition of the visor & sweatband and that this should be an “OBVIOUS” red flag “even to the novice”. Well, since I’m obviously a ”novice”, would you mind investing a little time in telling me just what, about the cap in question, is so obviously fake about the wear & condition of the visor & sweatband? Sorry if I’m such an unseasoned nitwit that I can’t read your mind NTZ but, for those of us that are so far behind the curve in our observation skills, would you mind clearly articulating what you see and how you interpret it so we need not guess and thereby misinterpret the ‘obvious’ wisdom you’re sharing? We novices are instructed to: “Do a search on fake Erel's. That sums it up” Why must we go further than seeking clarification of your enlightenment? Share dude.

We’re told the sweat band was only used between 38-40: Bullfeathers. Germans - the original recycle and use EVERYTHING people? Do you think the Germans threw out their stock of cap components because a clock stuck midnight in 1941? “Mein Got Heinrich, throw out all those sweatbands from 1940, it’s a New Year!” I’m sure a search of available imagery would net numerous later war caps with that style of sweatband.

With regard to the eReL venting systems having only brass grommets: Bullfeathers. Brass was a strategic metal allocated to critical industries. Think ‘war economy’ gentlemen. If eReL had a stockpile of brass grommets, Speer’s minions likely would’ve reallocated the metal to other critical industries and replaced them with ersatz materials. As early as 1942 the Army was using ‘steel cased ammunition’. Why do you suppose that was? Because brass was being reallocated to other critical industries such as those supporting the Kreigsmarine. Recycled steel, on the other hand, was in abundance right up to the end of the war.

Well, whatever. Jim - tell the owner of this piece of garbage that I’ll give him $500. today for it. Obviously he can’t sell it now to anyone who collects by the consensus and is affiliated with this forum now that we KNOW it’s a ground up fake. Hell, I’ll even go $1,000. for this “Frankenstein”. Have him send it to me & I’ll wire transfer the cash to his/her account today. Heck, I’m not even a novice in this goofy hobby according to NTZ but I ain’t scared.

[NTZ]

You can only lead a horse to water Rick. My suggestion is you give him market value for it. Ok, maybe a discount, $5,000. Just because your lack of experience can’t tell right from wrong, good from bad don’t interject and put an innocent collector at risk to take a big loss. Big talk from a man with no money in the game. Don’t let your inexperience sway someone to put hope in something that has no hope. I have forgot more about Erel’s than you will ever know. Have a nice day.

[Bobwirtz]

Sounds to me like he's trying to convince himself that he has a case for this cap being authentic and that we are all a bunch of thieves and pirates! If you like it, keep it. You'll discover that we were right all along if you ever go to sell it. Take it to a dealer... they know, for the most part, what is good and bad. They won't touch it. Whatever...

Bob

[NTZ]

Oh and just for the grommet king Rick. The black and silver ones are know reproductions that entered the market sometime in the mid to late 80’s. They are found on many fakes good to bad if you can put a range on fake quality. That along with the type of lining, shield and makings and lets not forget the pasteboard make this an 80’s /90’s fake. Take the info we have given and learn from it. It might save you a few $K one day.

[solo]

Rick,if you are convinced of his originality,do to him an offer ,you will buy cheap.
I will not buy it for $300 ,$300 is too much for an original erel's sweatband
Cheers
Carlo

[NTZ]

We’re told the sweat band was only used between 38-40: Bullfeathers. Germans - the original recycle and use EVERYTHING people? Do you think the Germans threw out their stock of cap components because a clock stuck midnight in 1941? “Mein Got Heinrich, throw out all those sweatbands from 1940, it’s a New Year!” I’m sure a search of available imagery would net numerous later war caps with that style of sweatband.

I guess this could be some more time to learn and move you up the curve. The sweatband was marked DRGM. In mid 1940 (Aug) to be exact Lubstein received a full patent status on the Stirnschutz sweatband. After which the sweatbands were marked “Patent”. Since the leather was cut, padding attached and reed attached before they were installed in the cap a person with reasonable intelligence would see the Erel logo was marked after the sweatband was cut and put together. If not these marks would be in every area of the cap as caps were of many sizes. With that said a strong assumption is they were not stamped DRGM after 1940 as all this was was a simple imprint. Secondly if you knew more about Erel’s and their construction you would know the lining material changed as did some subtle construction techniques over the years. Since a good chunk of Luft Erel’s are date marked one can use these dates to get a pretty good idea of changes Lubstein made from 1937-45. Now after you study Erel’s for 18 years you can come back and debate my findings.

[Bob Hritz]

Here is a fake ErEl hat given to me for diaplay with a generals uniform I bought. The hat is well made, but has a few things that make it obvious (after Nick and Chris gave me the clues).

The visor and sweatband are well used, but the hat is perfect outside.

The piping is the snake eating it's tail type, clearly visiable on the second photo I will post. Improved in newer generations, but not perfect.

The lining is not erel lining material

The side lining is not pleated any way close to any known original ErEl hat

The gilt embossing, on the lining is new and not the laquered correct gold foil used duting the original period

The hat weighs about twice what it should, a condition of overpadding which has been corrected on improved generations.

I would love for my hat to be real, but the seller knew better and with the price of my new uniform, he made the effort to give me a display hat until I find THE original. It is safer to know what you have and to listed to those who do know, when in doubt. I have been there, believe me!

Bob Hritz

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

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[Bob Hritz]

Interior

[NTZ]

Bob that cap might not be real but it sure looks good. Great filler.

[Bob Hritz]

Nick,

I have the sneaking suspicion that this hat was made to sell to a collector, not a reenactor. I know it is shocking, but I have heard rumors that there is quite an industry making fake hats.

Sadly, in 50 years, they will have real patination of the materials and with a little wear, out cutting the grass on a hot day, may 'become' authentic.

There is no excuse, with today's instant communication, for not learning everything you can about what you collect.

You don't want to end up like me, with more than one large 'mistakes box'.

Bob Hritz