H.G. Panzer Beret

[Richard P]

Willi,

I see several of your comments are aimed at my comments...which is perfectly fine with me. I will be more careful now that I may be quoted and facts checked...ha ha.

My comments about berets now appearing with the black backed insignia is part jest, and part, I wouldn't put it past somebody to try. I am in agreement with you that it would be a hard to make a convincing one, even if sewn with acceptable methods and materials.

I will not mention the initials HG again unless referring to the GNDHG, which is what I'm sure you are referring to, that would most likely not have berets because of the date in which it was formed. I tend to generalize when referring to a group that changed its title a number of times. RGG, BHG, GNDHG which gets shortened to DHG, and most generally just plain old HG, which I think most collectors identify as winding up as a panzer division. I will try to be more careful about which time period I am referring to and the titles at the time. I was not implying berets were worn that late by my lapse in the timeline and proper initials use...sorry about that.

I have found two different references that state the black panzer wrap and beret was introduced with the establishment of the Panzer-Spah-Zug in late 38, as you stated earlier. Logically I would tend to think that berets worn that early would have insignia with the blue-gray or dark blue backing which were available at the time. I'm still waiting for the Luftwaffe eagle fanatics to weigh in with their expertise.

I don't think the beret came with a Heer Panzerwaffe member in late 42 since they were most likely no longer being worn. If that was the case they probably had the black backed insignia by that time...but then there is that photo posted by Chris, which I think looks a couple of years earlier than 42.

I agree with you...it is a great thread, can't wait for more pics.

Richard

[LuckyStrike23]

Here is the photo of what appears to be 4 Pz IV "D" models. Impossible to tell much of anything from the photo but I most certainly trust George Petersen on this one. So, it this the Panzer Späh Zug?

very likely not. Panzer IV was the heaviest panzer in german army in 1940. Vehicles of "Panzerspähzüge" (armored reconnaisance) are light panzer or Sd.Kfz 221/222.

[LuckyStrike23]

I think all the orifinal beret tams have the spiral weave. It is very easy to seen on berets that were hadlled a lot with the nap worn off the wool. if the beret is not well worn, and the nap of the wool is near mint, it is most difficult to see.
Bob Hritz

100% correct. You can see this phenomenon on modern berets too.

[PMan]

Bevo Eagle

Has anyone EVER seen this specific cap eagle or, for that matter, any Luftwaffe
cap eagle, in BEVO on a dark background before? The lack of "sightings" of this eagle would be the only thing which would push me towards believing it was period-made and, in this case, period applied (despite this being in a collection since the 70's). Pretty simplistic approach, but what else do you have if everyone agrees that the beret itself is real and the Luftwaffe had these berets? In the absence of a photograph (which may certainly surface soon) showing this exact combination (and stitching pattern), where else do you go? You can debate markings all day long, but in the end they will establish no finite answer. IF that photograph surfaces (as Bob Hritz has noted), and if this beret has sold, someone will have made a great deal. If not, someone (at this price) will have overpaid by a few grand for a beret and a unique eagle. I think you would have to be either a real hardcore and serious collector (who would deserve real respect for his nerve) or someone who treats collecting like going to Vegas, to buy this piece today.

I for one, have never seen that bevo luft eagle anywhere, and I travel to all of the shows. If it where a repro, for sure, several examples would have been seen by now, after all, this beret turned up 40 years ago with that eagle.
Peter

[tgn]

OK, let's recap the situation.

First, there was doubt that a Luftwaffe beret even existed. That has been shown to be not the case. There is photographinc proof of their existence.

So now we have this Luftwaffe beret that fisrt appeared 40 years ago without much fanfare, and has since then been sitting quietly in a collection.

This beret has a very unusual BeVo eagle of a type not previously seen. The eagle is machine sewn to the beret.

So for me, it comes down to this. Is this eagle original? If so, then it is almost certainly an original Luftwaffe beret. If not, then the beret is a forged Luftwaffe beret made from an original Heer beret.

So what about the eagle? Good or bad???

Tom

[Leroy]

Judging only from its construction, and having NEVER seen one of these in the flesh, I would say it is a real eagle.

[billbert]

Lets go back to the bender volume 1 headgear book where we got the GG tank beret shot..lets move to page 277 foto spread of known headgeareagle variations 9 shown..take a peak in the bottom left hand corner..foto courtesy G. Peterson..what do we see?? Billbert

[Jos L C]

The eagle looks like a original ..

Jos.

[Leroy]

Good call, billbert! For those who may not have this book, here it is:

[billbert]

btt

[tgn]

Nice detective work billbert!

So, real eagle, real beret...

Tom

[Mike Davis]

...So for me, it comes down to this. Is this eagle original? If so, then it is almost certainly an original Luftwaffe beret. If not, then the beret is a forged Luftwaffe beret made from an original Heer beret...

I'm not sure I'm entirely following your logic here. Are you saying that if the eagle itself is original that it must have been originally applied to the cap during the period? Maybe I'm missing something.

[Leroy]

So, real eagle, real beret...

I have to say that's a bit too far of a jump...although the odds did go up a lot.

[Willi Z.]

very likely not. Panzer IV was the heaviest panzer in german army in 1940. Vehicles of "Panzerspähzüge" (armored reconnaisance) are light panzer or Sd.Kfz 221/222.

Yes, I agree. I doubt they would have used a PzIV in this role. I suspect they would have used a 231 though. I think that model of armored car was the only one in service until the 232 in 1938. This photo looks like a 231.

[BobI]

Hi Bob and All!
I checked with my source and John acquired this item from one of two people, either Ronnie or the dealer who sold his inventory out in the last year from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Chicago</st1lace></st1:City>. Neither of us can remember his name but I am sure you know him.
It did not come from a vet source as many of his items were acquired.
Best Wishes,
Bob