Luftwaffe Tropical Fliegermütze Overseas Cap

[Jos L C]

The development of the ballpoint pen is a matter of verifiable, historical fact. Either what you are seeing is not ballpoint, or the name was written in after the war. Most art forgers, when caught, say they do it for the joy of fooling "experts," not for profit. I suspect the forgers in our hobby are motivated by both, as even $1 postage stamps and $5 postcards are heavily faked, and there's little profit in them. This will just go around in circles. The hats are fake, I will never own one, most advanced collectors won't touch them, but if anybody wants to drink the Kool Aid and believe they're real, go for it. How many times can we beat this dead horse? There's not much more to say.

Well, to me it's not a dead horse for the reason that we're presuming they're fake without knowing..
All "evidence" is based on " I wouldn't want one" , "there's ballpoint inside" and "it's not the same as mine.."
That's no proof, it's just disregarding something we don't know.
To me they've the benefit of the doubt untill someone comes up with the source or can prove by facts that they'r really fake.
I know someone who always says : " if it doesn't look like mine it's fake ", for this guy the third reich was just one square meter big I'm afraid..

Jos.

[Chris]

The principles of classical debate are apparently no longer taught in the Old World. (Or perhaps they are, and you're testing us?) That's a lovely fallacious argument known in debate as "Argument by Rhetorical Question." Obviously one with solid provenance makes all alike good -- Each one doesn't have to have its own. The accepted good Berolinas have been found frequently among vet bringbacks. The ones you defend never have. (Poor argumentation, no points.)

Your comment also contains another classic fallacious argument, known as "Argument by Burden of Proof," which is the contention that something which has not been proven false must be true. Another poor debate trick. Also, a poor way to collect. "Good until proven bad" is to me an astonishingly foolish way to invest large amounts of money. But, you collect your way, and I'll collect mine. I collect from the opposite principle: "It's bad until proven good." These hats fall way outside the bounds of what is known to be good. Res ipsa loquitur.

[ROBB]

This one is Statni 1951 marked so if its got the size in biro it could proove these caps are real ,possibly .Rob.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...NA+BERLIN+1942

[J. Csernus]

Hi,

ball point pens are not an afterwar invention. Biro actually invented an ink for the ball point pen, wich cannot dry out so fast as the former ones. Ball point pens were aviable before the war. The first mass produced ones were made by a man called GL Lorenz in 1924, and an other was made by Wenczel Clime from Chezslovakia in 1938. The first patent actually came from John J. Loud in 1888 (GB Patent No. 15630).

[Glenn McInnes]

What I find interesting is why are the makers stamps in these unissued hats always so faded out? Why are there none with a nice,crisp makers stamp like you can often see in unissued hats/jackets etc? This feature alone I find odd.

I did notice (based on photos) that the penned in size stamp was more pronounced in some and not so in others.





Glenn

[Adrian Stevenson]

I find this a very interesting thread. Please have a read of this one too from the FJ forum a few years ago:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=109947

Cheers, Ade.

[Chris]

Hi,

Biro actually invented an ink for the ball point pen, wich cannot dry out so fast as the former ones.

That is incorrect. The problem was that the ink did not dry fast enough, and would invariably smear and smudge. Biro had the idea that newspaper ink, which dries fast after application, might be used in a pen. The earlier ballpoint pens you cite were failures. Too much ink came out too fast. The first practicable ballpoint pen patent, which actually resulted in a working pen, was taken in Britain just before the war by Biro. He later moved to Argentina, where he improved his design, and that design was used by the RAF. Just as there were patents for horseless carriages (automobiles) decades before there were workable cars, there were patents for different kinds of pens. However, apart from one or two curiosity items, ball point pens were not in any sort of general use in continental Europe until the 1950's. This history is widely known and widely accepted by pen collectors, and there are books on the subject, so I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to rewrite history.

These hats are made from a different material than accepted Berolina originals, have a different makers stamp than accepted Berolina originals, and have ballpoint pen size markings, which is wrong, and Berolina originals all have stamps in any case. None of these hats appeared until the late 80's or early 90's, when a large number suddently were "found." And none of this type has every been found as a veteran bringback, whereas the accepted Berolinas have been frequently.

Bottom Line: There's two ways to collect: You can look at a piece and ask yourself: What's wrong with this? Why is this bad? And if after careful scrutiny, you can't find anything, and it conforms to what is known, you might want to invest in it. Or you can use the Magical Thinking approach: You can look at a piece, and see if there's any way you can possibly explain with convoluted, complex theories, leaps of faith, and suspension of disbelief why it could maybe possibly be real, and then buy it. I have built my collection with the former technique, and I'm happy with it. If others want to use the Magical Thinking technique, and are happy with the results, it's none of my business, and good luck to them.

[90th Light]

This is a great debate except for one major point, those hand applied numbers are not done in a ball point ink. They instead appear to be some sort of fine marker crayon typical of what tailors use to mark out where to cut out clothes. Asked one of the science guys at work so he magnified it many times and said there is no soaking. Just sitting on the surface like a paste. Hard to say more with out breaking it down and testing.

Interesting however that we are arguing over the timing of ball point ink but no-one has proved beyond doubt that it is in fact ball point and if this was a professional art analysis, that is one of the important things they would do.

I do agree however that my one which is 1942 dated is different in more ways than one way from my 1941 veteran brought back one but there are also difference in some of may other tropical cap makers between 1940 verses 1941 verses 1942 verses 1943. Not all makers were entirely consistent over their production period and each production year sometimes had its own little footprints. Depends on the maker.

This said, I certainly agree that the differences in this one justify further investigation and the caution being shown here. What I would like to see is some good examples of known veteran 1942 dated caps by this maker to compare with,

Chris

[Pierre]

Are hand applied numbers usual on a mass produced item? Isn't it a waste of time compared to a stamp?

Pierre

[John Hodgin]

Everyone should carefully read the thread that Ade already linked to here.

Glenn's observation on mint caps all having faded maker's marks is also important.

From that thread, here is an accepted Berolina mark.

[John Hodgin]

Eagle detail from a tropical cap, brought home from Tunisia by a US soldier.

Again, why do all the "pen" sized caps have eagles lacking eyes?

[John Hodgin]

One of Willi's photos detailing the marking of a "pen" sized cap; this well illustrates Glenn's "why are they faded?" observation.

[John Hodgin]

Pierre makes a good point about the sizing being hand marked, which has been brought up before, that I agree with.

I don't care if the size was marked with a ball point pen, a sharp crayon, a pencil, or a charcoal stick! All this discussion of the history of ball point pens is superfluous. Why hand mark the size in a cap?

How many of you have any other German WW II headgear or uniforms that you consider authentic with hand written size markings???????

[Jos L C]

What if they were not size marked at all, which half of the ones I've seen are ??
Would that make people less nervous ?
..and who knows for sure who wrote the size in ?

OK, Let's see what we've till now ?

They're fake, because they don't look like other Berolinas.
We pretend the pen size "was put in during war, which is impossible " , so they're fake ..
Faint stamps make items fake..
The eagle has no "eye", while many times "vet" items with serious flaws are OK because " it happened sometimes " ..
The US soldiers took home a example of EVERY TR item, so everything different must be fake..
Berolina only used one sort of fabric during the war.
Berolina only used one stamp.

.... do they have any good point actually ?

Jos.

[John Hodgin]

Yes, we have an excellent and VALID point!

What if they were not size marked at all, which half of the ones I've seen are ??
Would that make people less nervous ?
..and who knows for sure who wrote the size in ?

OK, Let's see what we've till now ?

They're fake, because they don't look like other Berolinas.
We pretend the pen size "was put in during war, which is impossible " , so they're fake ..
Faint stamps make items fake..
The eagle has no "eye", while many times "vet" items with serious flaws are OK because " it happened sometimes " ..
The US soldiers took home a example of EVERY TR item, so everything different must be fake..
Berolina only used one sort of fabric during the war.
Berolina only used one stamp.

.... do they have any good point actually ?

Jos.

Sadly Jos, none of these points prove anything positive about the odd caps and begs to prove a negative. Another waste of time just as the history of ball point pens.

Meanwhile, no cap with these odd features has yet to be veteran associated.

And moreover, many caps with the accepted markings, fabric, eagles, and inkstamped sizes ARE veteran associated.

John Lennon said it well: "Whatever gets you though the night"

"Good point?" I do not know. Valid point, yes!