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    #16
    You're a believer or not ..

    ... It's still only presuming, because nobody knows..
    Some stick with the fact Berolina used only 1 stamp, but did they ?

    Jos.

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      #17
      Well, most people don't believe Berolina had a time machine, to travel to the 1990's (when these appeared), to buy modern rolling-ball ballpoint pens, and then travelled back to the 1940's with the 1990's pens to write sizes in hats with them by hand, a practice which has not been seen in other factory-made items to my knowledge.

      Comment

        #18
        During the war RAF pilots already used ballpoints because they worked better at high altitude than their fountain pens..

        Jos.

        Comment

          #19
          That is true, but the patents were held in Britain and Argentina, where the RAF design was created by the Hungarian inventor Lazlo Biro. The Germans did not have them, and they did not appear in Europe until well after the war. Even then, for some time, they were a novelty and were not in widespread use for many years. In any event, the sizes of uniform items were not written in the garments by hand.

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            #20
            I think it's important to reiterate that these biro hand written sizes are only seen in Berolina hats with a particular style of makers stamping, they have so far never surfaced in hats with the other style of stamping. Mark.

            Comment

              #21
              Do you think it would be hard for fakers to get some size stamps instead of using ballpoint ?
              Ok, I make a perfect cap and spoil it by using a ballpoint.., besides that, not all of these caps have the ballpoint mark..
              I like the caps, but don't like the ballpoint mark and think they've been added..

              Jos.

              Comment

                #22
                (1) Fakers do all sorts of stupid things.
                (2) The caps are not perfect. The fabric is subtly different than other Berolinas, as is the ink stamp.
                (3) To believe these hats are original, you would have to believe that some one had the incredible good fortune to find a couple dozen original Luftwaffe tropical Berlolina side caps, then methodically wrecked every one of them by writing a size in them all with a ballpoint pen before putting them on the market. That is beyond delusional, it is in the realm of magical thinking.

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                  #23
                  (1) I agree in general, although some are rather smart.

                  (2) Was it a law to use the same fabric and stamp all war long ?

                  (3) Finders, dealers and even collectors do all kind of stupid things..

                  Jos.

                  Comment

                    #24
                    It has been done with canvas that was woven differently 400 years ago, with 400 year old frames and stretchers, using pigments in paints that have not been available for centuries, with handmade brushes that have not been made since the Industrial Revolution, in the exact painting style of a known master so perfectly that it fooled the best experts in the world for decades. Do you think it would really be so hard to do with some cotton fabric and a sewing machine? I guess in the end, you believe what you want to believe, and collect what you want to own. I would not own one of these, and I don't think many advanced collectors would, either. IMO it is wise to stick with accepted textbook examples, rather than pieces requiring a lot of complex rationalization, leaps of faith, and a suspension of common sense.
                    Attached Files

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                      #25
                      Chris sums this debate up well i feel. These caps could possibly be ok i suppose, but i wouldn't want one in my collection either. And the bottom line is many others will feel the same which somewhat taints this style of cap.
                      This whole debate on these caps was played out in 2005 in the FJ forum and took the same course this thread is taking. Bottom line was nobody could come up with a Berolina with biro'd size that had rock solid vet providence.
                      Which i admit is a shame if.....if......these caps really are of the period. Mark.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Well, at least these caps have one advantage and that's that they're older than 20 years..
                        I saw them much earlier than 1990.
                        I've seen a couple and discovered 3 types of eagles are being used, 2 types made of rather thick fabric and one of very thin fragile fabric , even nowadays you'll find just one type eagle on fake caps of a certain faker..
                        I think the faker was sitting on his hands and for the hobby made it a bit complicated and kept the price low, because those days they were really cheap... zip profit on a rather convincing cap, he must've been on drugs..
                        ..and for the record, I've seen ballpoint names in vet purchased thumbs up stuff, what's the story about that ?
                        Not trying to prove anything, just observations and questions..

                        Jos.

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Jos,
                          I don't know who had what or when they had it, but I've got a 100% original KM officer overseas cap with the name written in ballpoint.
                          Leroy


                          P.S. Point being: If the hat itself is good, the pen writing doesn't retroactively make it bad.
                          Last edited by Leroy; 07-06-2008, 06:16 AM. Reason: Clarify

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                            #28
                            Oh boy..

                            Jos.

                            Comment

                              #29
                              The development of the ballpoint pen is a matter of verifiable, historical fact. Either what you are seeing is not ballpoint, or the name was written in after the war. Most art forgers, when caught, say they do it for the joy of fooling "experts," not for profit. I suspect the forgers in our hobby are motivated by both, as even $1 postage stamps and $5 postcards are heavily faked, and there's little profit in them. This will just go around in circles. The hats are fake, I will never own one, most advanced collectors won't touch them, but if anybody wants to drink the Kool Aid and believe they're real, go for it. How many times can we beat this dead horse? There's not much more to say.

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Originally posted by uknews View Post
                                Bottom line was nobody could come up with a Berolina with biro'd size that had rock solid vet providence.
                                I think 80% in all collections don't have rock solid providence, would that mean all is questionable ?

                                Jos.

                                Comment

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