Luftwaffe Tropical Fliegermütze Overseas Cap

[solo]

......
How many of you have any other German WW II headgear or uniforms that you consider authentic with hand written size markings???????

Hi Jhon,the most of the visors hats have size hand marked.
I konw this is not a visor so could be different.
I have the same side hat without the size and with a no faded stamp.
if you want I can do a pik.
All the best
carlo

[John Hodgin]

Yes Carlo,

I would like to see the markings of your side cap, and it's eagle. Do you know the history of the cap?

Question, are your visors hand sized marked and also ink stamped or printed (embossed) with the size?


Pencil and grease pencil markings on uniforms are common, but there is also the ususal size inkstamp in the correct position. The requirments for correct inkstamp markings were strictly adhered to by manufacturers.

Thanks,
John

[solo]

Hell J.
I cheked all my visors,the most have only the size pencilled with roman # some with arabian #, very few stamped but only with the last # 8,7,and so on,two or three have only the last # and another # stamped but I don't know what this second # mean.

The eagle is the same with no eye.
Tomorrow I'll take the pik of the stamp and bird.
Cheers
Carlo

[90th Light]

The ink stamps are not faded.

All the faint stamps prove is that that ink pad was running out of ink or running dry. On the other hand the person stamping the caps may not have been hitting the pad every time they stamped a cap. No fading what so ever but what this does prove is that they were stamping a lot of caps which can be a monotonous task.

In my younger accounting days I use often be taken to a big clothing mill, they use to make stuff in batches with certain rows of sewing machines allocated to certain production runs so that they knew who made what and could follow up for quality control. Hand applied numbers would be no slower than stamping esp if the quality inspectors wanted to double check the sizes being achieved by new staff under training.

Interesting that we do not yet seem to have any photos of known original 1942 dated caps by this maker to compare with. This is a important key. All my other ones are 1941 dated and veteran brought back but the big question is, are there differences between 1941 manufacture and 1942 manufacture by this maker ???

Personally I think there is a good argument both ways on this one, If they are fake they are one very well made fake esp. for the mid 1980's on the other hand they are just good enough to be real. Also just had a email from an another DAK collector asking were they not part of the "Beehive" find ?

Chris

[John Hodgin]

The ink stamps are not faded.

All the faint stamps prove is that that ink pad was running out of ink or running dry. On the other hand the person stamping the caps may not have been hitting the pad every time they stamped a cap. No fading what so ever but what this does prove is that they were stamping a lot of caps which can be a monotonous task.

Chris

It is illogical, or perhaps grasping at straws, to assert the ink pad was never replenished thus providing a crisp dark stamp on some caps, AS FOUND on Berolina caps with veteran provenance. Why do all the questionable caps have very faint stamps?

[John Hodgin]

Inbut the big question is, are there differences between 1941 manufacture and 1942 manufacture by this maker ???

Chris

No, except for the date, none what so ever.

[90th Light]

It is illogical, or perhaps grasping at straws, to assert the ink pad was never replenished thus providing a crisp dark stamp on some caps, AS FOUND on Berolina caps with veteran provenance. Why do all the questionable caps have very faint stamps?

Hello John,

some of my other unissued sidecaps also have faint maker marks. You have to hold them at the right angle to read them. In fact it has been my observation that fake caps often have very dark, deliberately stamped markings which one can not miss. The faker is saying, this is real because it has nice clear stamps.

I do agree with your point that the stamp is of a different font and that is certainly the point of investigation which can not be easily explained and may well be the decider but having had to stamp more times than I care to remember over 1000 exam scripts with a date and time, I can say with certainty that it does not take long before the stamp gets faint esp. if the ink pad did not have enough ink to start off with. Add a little water, wait a while and it brings the pad back to life but never as strong.

It is a good question however and the more I think about it, why go to all that trouble as a faker of making the cap so well, making a pretty close stamp and then stamping them all so faintly. Does not make sense unless you are working some where hot like India and the stamp pad is drying out on you ???

Like I have already stated there are good arguments both ways on this one and to be honest, I am on the fence watching with interest,

Chris

[Mike Bollow]

Can I ask what you paid for it? That is sometimes a clue...

Thanks - Mike

[John Hodgin]

Hi Chris,

My problem with the stamp of the caps in question is not that the marks are faint, but that ALL the caps of this style exhibit faint marks.

The other style of Berolina stamp is found dark, medium, and light on different caps, as one would expect as an ink stamp is depleted during use.

These odd caps however, dated during the same production period as the veteran associated caps with different markings, are all consistent in their lighter markings and all have cap eagles without clear eye definition.

If you have read my comments on the three year old thread that Ade provided the link to, then you know I do not condemn these caps, but want them considered in greater detail.

These non veteran associated caps remind me of the überfallhosen found made from very thin fabric. They are of almost textbook construction, but none have veteran provenance, they have been around for decades, and all are in unissued condition.

To date, neither the überfallhosen nor these odd caps have been shown to have any veteran provenance! I have seen dozens of Berolina tropical caps with the accepted maker's mark which were brought home by US soldiers. And I am sure you have seen quite a number as well. This alone is very telling and important for me. I have seen dozens of removed tropical cap eagles, all with veteran provenance, and all of them have clearly defined eyes. Again I ask, how many other German WW II uniforms can you show me with handwritten sizes? These facts are more than enough to create a lot of doubt, and also merit further study and information before these caps are blessed as good or bad. Yet many are ready and eager to ignore the negative evidence and post invalid reasons asserting why the caps could be genuine.

Verifiable evidence is needed, not endless "what if" or "perhaps maybe" conjecture on textiles, ball point pen history, crayon markings, etc.

With regards,
John

[90th Light]

Thanks John,

I understand where you are coming from a lot better now. Got all my ones out today and studied them hard. I can see what you mean.

I have to say however that my 1942 cap is very, very well made and the lining material is exactly the same as the 1941 dated one which is surprising if the 1942 cap is a fake. How did they achieve that ?

Nothing else is exactly the same however so it is a real puzzle. My 1942 one is very soiled from bad storage at the rear.

Will be checking all examples carefully from now on with regard to these points.

Can not really say any more at this stage.

Best regards, Chris

[Willi Z.]

I thought I would provide an update on Berolina caps. They are now faking the controversial caps with the faint markings and the written size stampings. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw them! Very poorly copied Berolina markings with hand written sizes (very clearly done in blue ball point ink) Poorly constructed overall with a very fake eagle. Nothing even close to the controversial ones or classic textbook examples. I saw several at a show over the weekend. With a bad Tobbin made cap as well.

Sorry, no photos. I couldn't sneak a shot!

[Lenny W]

thanks for the update willi that leads me to suspect that criminal minds prowl these forums for new ideas on how to make the fakes better

[Gene]

thanks for the update willi that leads me to suspect that criminal minds prowl these forums for new ideas on how to make the fakes better

And heaven forbid if you pull your pics so as not to aid the forgers

[John Huff]

but I've seen a recent thread on the FJ forum where the pics were pulled to HELP the fakers.... (or sellers of such)