W-SS Erel Officers

[NTZ]

Well let’s try this approach for thelma. Since Thelma seems to be an expert on Erel visor caps I would like him to answer the following about the subject cap.

1. Why is the pasteboard untreated cardboard when every single Erel I have ever seen has black fiber composite or treated tan pasteboard?
2. Why is the air hole grommet painted black with no visible signs of crimping when every single Erel I have ever seen has a brass grommet with visible internal crimping?
3. Why is the side lining made of a different material than any other Erel visor that I have seen?
4. Why does the shield appear to have the Luft Kleiderkasse address?
5. Why is the sweatband missing the inner piece of material that ALL ventilated Erel’s have between the sweatband and base?
6. Why is there a discrepancy between the wear and color of the side lining and top lining?

Since thelma seems to know his Erel visors better than us maybe he can come back and answer a few questions. This is a friendly difference in opinion. Maybe he can teach me something here.

[Bob Coleman]

I will confess to being one of those who liked what was shown from the initial images. The cloth cover appeared to have the nice toning I would expect from a period hat-not bright and fresh like it just left the factory in Latvia. When the interior photos were posted, I did see some items to question and I believe these issues were raised over here. I would like to handle this hat to study all of the points raised at this site and reserve final judgement based upon that.
I have no idea where the position started that Erel did not make hats for the SS. Total balderdash that defys logic. Erel was in the business of making visor caps. As is well documented, many Heer, Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine officers wore Erel caps. Why then not members of the SS-VT, the SS TKV, the Waffen SS and the Allgemeine SS? Does anyone really believe that a company that not only was in business to profit but also were proud to furnish hats to the top military leaders of the 3rd Reich would exclude leaders from the most powerful force of it day? There is a definite lack of knowledge and logic in that position.

[Chris_Werner]

Again, here we are defending knowledgable opinions on Visors. I find it amazing that those who have studied and went above and beyond the do the real research, and are willing to share their hard work and learning with us, are berated because they attempt to share this knowledge!
For a collector who wants to learn, and not just possess "eye candy", it makes absolutely no sense to not want to hear from any and all individuals who have handled hundreds, if not thousands of visors over the years.
If you don't like what you are hearing, ask questions, offer opinions based on YOUR experience, and get a good thread going that the rest of us can all learn from. I for one would like to know the difference between a real $8000.00 visor, and a $125.00 fake.
And finally, agree to disagree. Even if you are 100% convinced the opinions you are hearing are incorrect, at least you know there are some questions, and you can keep that in the back of your mind as you build your collection. No one likes to hear negative comments about the items we possess, but I would rather hear the imput. Ignorance is not bliss as far as my collection goes. As soon as I can figure out our new camera, and pay Seba the dues, I plan to post some of my stuff. I have a Mooreman SS EM/NCO Visor I think is good, but I am eager to get feedback. If I don't like what I am hearing, that is just the name of the game. If it really concerns me, I'll send the lid to Shea, Hritz or one of the many other knowledgable dealer/collectors who can do a hands on for a reasonable fee. This is how you build a great collection, and not one filled with junk that will dissappoint the wife when she tries to sell it after you check out.
But for Pete's sake, quit acting like Der Fuhrer in his final days, screaming at those who brought him bad news. I think I would rather know, so you could catch that last flight out with Hannah.

[NTZ]

I will confess to being one of those who liked what was shown from the initial images. The cloth cover appeared to have the nice toning I would expect from a period hat-not bright and fresh like it just left the factory in Latvia. When the interior photos were posted, I did see some items to question and I believe these issues were raised over here. I would like to handle this hat to study all of the points raised at this site and reserve final judgement based upon that.
I have no idea where the position started that Erel did not make hats for the SS. Total balderdash that defys logic. Erel was in the business of making visor caps. As is well documented, many Heer, Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine officers wore Erel caps. Why then not members of the SS-VT, the SS TKV, the Waffen SS and the Allgemeine SS? Does anyone really believe that a company that not only was in business to profit but also were proud to furnish hats to the top military leaders of the 3rd Reich would exclude leaders from the most powerful force of it day? There is a definite lack of knowledge and logic in that position.

Bob if you do look at it in hand let me know your thoughts. You already know I have absolutely no problem with Erel SS visors. In fact I gave high praise to one of yours. Why it is being questioned in not the fact that it is an Erel but how is was constructed in comparison to every other Erel out there.

[solo]

I noted 3 thing I don't like in this cap:

1) the black grommet ,never seen in Erel caps

2) the lack of the orang fabric between the pasteboard and the sweatband in the front

3) the lack of the small holes in the front of the sweatband ,but sometime is

Too many problems in a hat ,I'll save money.

Carlo

Sorry I arrived late,Nick posted everything

[Bob Coleman]

Ntz-
We Have No Disagreement On Your Concerns With The Hat. I Also Know That We Both Agree That The Erel Not Making Ss Hats Is Total Nonsense. I Made My Initial Judgement Based On The Quality Of Material And The Proper Age Look To It. It Is Interesting That The Owner Held Back The Interior Images Until After The First Round Of Comments Were Made. This Would Be A Great Piece To Study As It Was Not A Slam Dunk Bad One From The Onstart. If This Is A Fake, Which Of Which There Is Some Possibility, It Is Better Than Those Enountered In The Past. It Also Once Again Proves The Point That Accurate Appraisal Cannot Be Done Solely From Photos.

[SJP]

[quote=thelma;1905377]All I can say is that whoever posted these images from another forum is TOTALY out of order and is of no business to the members here for comment!


Really?

Here's the vent from my "remodel"
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Cheers Steve

[NTZ]

Good shot Steve! You can even see the extra set of holes in the visor on yours. Take note of the untreated cardboard pasteboard and black grommet. I can’t wait to you post the dissected images. That will be a great post.

Bob you are correct. If indeed this visor ends up being put together (although I have the feeling we will never know) it is one of the best I have ever seen.

[NTZ]

Just a side note that could help some collectors. If you see untreated cardboard on an “original” visor it should be a red flag. The reason they were treated was to keep its shape and keep the cap frame solid when wet. The pasteboard it right behind the sweatband and through use and perspiration will get wet. If left untreated the pasteboard would deteriorate very quickly and the cap would be destroyed. I have NEVER seen a single period cap with untreated pasteboard. I guess the fakers and reproduction makers didn’t care how long the cap lasts as long as it looked good. Just something to keep in mind.

[stonemint]

I posted this due to the fact that each hat is a learning experience--and looking at it, I new that there was much that could be said in the way of "review and comment", and people are here to both teach and learn--that is why we are all in this forum, which specializes in hats, and nothing else, regardless of organization.

The internet is public domain (for now), and unless copyrighted or trademarked, all images are available to all. Do I expect each picture that I post here do be downloaded on someone's hard-drive? Sure--since the hobby is about learning and teaching.

This visor stuck out at me because of the Puttkamerstr address, as well at the grommet--and I agree with Bob and NTZ, Erel did make SS visors.
The stitching on this strindruckfrei sweatband is immaculate--I cannot see a "re"-stitch, so if a Franky, this seamstress did a heck of a job.

Someone said you can't duplicate aging on a visor like that. Well, you can, as I have seen it done on even Jankes--its probably due to exposing it to UV light or a heating element. However, there are plenty of aged visors that are era to go around as well.

Unfortunately, I got back to the forum before NTZ deleted his posts--hopefully he can re-post what he said.

I would also like to point out the fact that the A-SS Erel visors which were recently posted here were given a thumbs-up by all on the forum--"textbook" in every way. I find that those with knowledge post their thoughts on each hat in a civilized way, and the newer collectors sit back and learn--thats how it went with this thread.

Yes, I would love to have this baby "in Hand"--but the pictures are the best we have (and as NTZ said, probably all we will ever have).

[stonemint]

BTW--Steve Pardon, nice post--can we see more of that hat? (and could you keep it in this thread for the sake of continuity?)--Thanks.

[NTZ]

Two more comments for the Erel enthusiast. Take a look at the size of the sheild in post #3. I have never measured the difference but some Luft Erel's have a larger shield than their Army counterparts. This one does appear to be the larger size.

Also as Stonemint alerted us to the address you could just get a glimpse of in post # 6 is indeed the address to the Luftwaffe Kleiderkasse. The complete shield was not shown by the owner for a reason. The shield IMHO is out of a Luftwaffe visor. The Luftwaffe Kleiderkasse address was located at Puttkamerstabe 16/18. This was a standard marking in most Luftwaffe Erel visors. Take a look in Wilkins book pg. 260 if you wish to see what the shield would look like in its entirety. If the printing on the shield of the subject visors was complete my guess is he posted it on the other forum as some form of joke or test because if complete it would be marked Luftwaffe. Then again these marks may have been removed from the subject visor.

[stonemint]

One last thing--here is "textbook" Erel grommet and pasteboard with the treatment that NTZ is talking about:

[NTZ]

Now for my grand finally I give you the indisputable evidence of what this shield was from. Feel free to match it up to the pics.

thelma, do you put yourself in this group?

"This is of course part of the reason that we lose so many high end collectors/dealers posting their collections for our benifit"

[SJP]

I'm not ready or prepared to post yet and would just as soon keep my project seperate from this thread.I did save the photo's for insertion.I certainly hope whoever is comtemplating purchasing that piece rethinks it. These hat's come from a cottage industry dating from the early 80's and originate from the North America.(IMO).Whenever I read posts like the one here and on the other forum I learn there is/was a vested interest in the piece
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Cheers Steve