The late war economy Erel, did they exist?

[NTZ]

I'd like to commend Nick on his efforts to try and get to the bottom of this late war erel question. For me, this kind of detective work is what our hobby and this forum should be about. Finding the facts, firstly for your own pleasure but ultimatley to benefit everybody.

Anyway, the one thing that still puzzles me about erel and the obvious decline of the quality materials in their caps is why we don't see the same development so much with the other big manufactures of TR hats, the Clemens Wagners and the Schellenburgs etc? (well, not until after the war at least) Did erel have no choice but to make do with sub standard materials as the war drew to a close or did they make a conscious and rather forward thinking design decision to make less flamboyant, easier to make and more affordable caps because they were clever enough to recognise that the demand for high end headgear was just not there anymore and would never be again?

Ben thanks you for the kind words. I thought about your question also. Since Erel really was the Offizier’s Kleiderkasse system for visors producing almost all the visors for the Army's Klederkasse system here are a couple of thoughts. Was Lubstein obligated or persuaded to use certain suppliers for his materials by the Army? Did the Army dictate that they cut down or substitute materials that were in short supply such as leather and wool? Was he persuaded to make caps more affordable though the system? Just a thought. I wonder if Gary Wilkins ran across anything related to materials in his in depth research of Erel?

[NTZ]

Here is an after though on the decline of the Erel from the price angle. Since Erel was really the only cap maker operating through the Offizier’s Kleiderkasse system what if the Army imposed a cap or fixed the "Base price" of his caps. As the war progressed and supplied of all kinds got more expensive he had to find a way to make the caps within a given budget. How do you do that? Decrease the quality of materials and reduce labor cost. This surely would explain why you don’t see it in other makers. This could also explain why you see expensive bullion insignia on late war caps of inferior quality. If it was only a base price he was obligated to keep down if someone so choose they could upgrade at the additional cost but at least they were made available at a certain price.

Just tossing out thoughts.

[BenVK]

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head there Nick. Can we say the same about Lubstein's caps sold through the Luftwaffe Kleiderkasse though?

[NTZ]

JC Gray, so what is your opinion on these? I do have to say the piping core material should be of some concern since the only “plastic” the Germans were using at the time was bakelite as far as I know.

[J C Gray]

Before Donald went MIA from the forum, he had informed me that he would not be concerned about this type of core on period piping. But, anyway, after some research of my own, I have learned that Polyurethane was invented in Germany in 1937 by Otto Bayer and was further developed in 1938 by Heinrich Rinke (a colleague of Herr Bayer). This product was then marketed in various forms under the trade name "Igamid" and was made available commercially during 1942. I, therefore, believe that it is totally feasible for an early form of plastic to have been used in wartime, German, manufacturing industries.
As for the cap in question, the core to this piping was like no other plastic that I have ever seen...it had an almost sticky feeling to it and as there are no other areas of the cap which give me reason to suspect postwar manufacture, I feel comforable in voting 'yes'.

[BenVK]

I think plastics were used a lot more than we first think. Transparent plastic/plexiglas/perspex was invented in Germany in the 30's don't forget.

[NTZ]

I too have spoken with Donald regarding these caps, in fact this past weekend. He is a believer in the authenticity of these so-called late war Erels. It would be great to hear from him on the forum though.

[Sayle F]

TR plastic

Plastics were definetly used. In piping like in the cap pictured by JC GRAY, on HJ dagger scabbards, which I have seen many, and on helmet chinstraps to name a few things. Pictured is a late war canvas liner and plastic chinstrap.

[NTZ]

Gentleman, I think you will all be interested in the following. I mailed Gary Wilkins regarding this thread and asked for his opinion. Gary was kind enough to respond and gave a wealth of valuable information regarding this subject. Fortunately for all of us he was also kind enough to allow me to post it. IMO this puts an end to the question. Gary again, thank you very much for taking the time to give us your thoughts and opinions.


Hi Nick,

Sorry I could not get back to you sooner, but I have been tied up in gathering information for a support package in an issue with the VA, and it has taken nearly all of my free time over the past week. I will do what I can to help in this issue.

1) I personally have never come across a single EREL cap with a pressed paper "Ersatz" visor - certainly there are many EREL caps out there that have not ever physically passed by me, since I am in only one place at any given time, and simply have no way to view every EREL that exists. Be that as it may, I have however, indeed encountered a good number of caps by EREL: which are undoubtedly later war production based on general decreases in overall material quality - but in every case the workmanship still remained pretty good. In addition, the production process for producing Vulkanfiber was not one that - from what I have been able to determine at least - had any significant impact on war production in terms of material shortages (cellulose was apparently not a material in short supply until the very end due to factory fallout); hence, there was no real reason to try to "spare" the material for military uses (unlike certain metals, for example) since it was already indeed being put to military use. Lubstein's grandson recalls stacks and stacks of visor stocks, and recalls that his grandfather's company did the lacquering work on the premises - though he deosn't recall specifically which year(s) it was that he noticed this on one of his childhood visits. It does seem to imply that there was a pretty significant stock on hand (though granted, perhaps not in every needed size), and that visors were readily available, at least until transport difficulties affected deliveries.

2) On Luftwaffe visor caps from 1942 onward, EREL seems to have provided an alternative to the hard leather form, in a notably thin Vulkanfiber visor with no curved brim rim; these sometimes were dressed with a brim picquee as on the leather visors, and sometimes omitting this (in which case no stitching holes for the picquee mar the visor edge). The thin visor seems to have been no less sturdy - it was, seemingly, only an aesthetic difference.

So with all the above in mind, I tend to discount the use of pressed paper visors by Lubstein / EREL on even late-war caps (though again, this said without ever having seen a purported example).

3) Visor caps with fairly late date stamps (on the sweatband reverse) still often have the complex "air-cushion sweatband" system installed, so if Lubstein cut back and went to a very simplified construction, it was only at the very end, and by that time, delivery of finished products to distribution points would also have been extremely difficult - so likely it is that very few examples would have made it out of Berlin, survived the end of the war, survived 68 or so years, only to have appeared relatively recently (?) to raise this issue of contention.
I have seen EREL caps using the Alkor type Ersatz sweatband material - and on headgear dated long before the end of the war - but on this point it appears that he went with what was available if natural leather was not, and the Alkor stuff was a reputable material (though I suspect Lubstein preferred real leather whenever he could get it). However, I have also never encountered an authentic EREL cap which has the pressed paper material sweatband - which WAS used by quite a few other makers (especially the generic companies). I took a quick look at the pics on the forum thread (but didn't have time to read all the entries), and the surface texture of the sweatband on the example cap shown there looks like that of the pressed paper - which would NOT then carry the "Deutsches Leder" mark on it since it isn't real leather. In any case, I have never encountered any military EREL cap that bears the "Deutsches Leder" embossed mark present on the sweatband, so I am somewhat leery of this band, if indeed it is pressed paper - perhaps I am wrong.....He certainly did use the "U" - the folded over - style sweatband on caps, likely only for what he considered his "lower end" stuff (though for him, "lower end" did NOT equate to shoddy).

4) I did read one comment that hypothesized about perhaps the spending limits imposed by limited prices given by the Armed forces - a very interesting issue, but I suspect the scale was too limited to have impacted Lubstein's material purchasing ability (I would say, this would more likely be an issue on the contract caps he provided to the military, rather than Kleiderkasse items (though later, as visor cap issue to enlisted men was cut back in general accross the board, however, it would have become much less of an issue).
The majority of Lubstein's sales were almost certainly wholesale to retail outlets at prices the market set to some degree - but he likely had the quality reputation to take in a bit more. In addition, he marketed to the entire range of other organizations: post office, customs, police, what have you - and for a time at least, still had money in the bank or coming in, from foreign export sales. In addition, he marketed Tschakos, etc., and no doubt all of this brought in sufficient income to, in a pinch, subsidize whatever headgear he sold through the Kleiderkasse. A good thought, but doesn't quite add up.

Lubstein was a very frugal person, and he and his wife managed things pretty tightly, so I suspect there was little waste in his company.
According to his own words (I have a copy of his own resume, which he typed in 1946) he experienced a great deal of friction with Ernst Hoffmann and the other members of the association of cap makers that Hoffmann ruled within the industry, and always tried to play on the edge of the field, just wanting to do his thing; it seems Hoffmann and crowd didn't like him because he wouldn't play the game, and they were jealous of his success. Lubstein consistently mentions that during the super high inflation time s of the depression years, he never had to let any employee go because he couldn't pay his salary (during these years, Lubstein was very successfully exporting for hard currency to South America, Norway, Sweden and more, so he indeed was doing very well despite the terrible German economy).
I suspect that if he managed things well enough to be so successful and boast such claims during the terrible inflation years, that he would also have been no less able to weather a way through government pricing requirements without sacrificing on his quality - too much of a decrease in that would have been just what his enemy Hoffmann and others, would have loved to see.
I think, if the necessary materials were available anywhere, Lubstein was dedicated enough to find and acquire them. This is conjecture only, but after studying the man, this is what I believe.

In any case, I have records from the company that include an inventory done in early 1946 of everything on hand in the firm (and a list of suppliers), as of the end of the war. I have not yet had a chance to go through this material in any kind of detail, but will dig it out this weekend and see if I can find any reference to visors, and possible visor materials. Doubt there'll be mention of the latter, but who knows.
In all other company documents that I possess, I have seen no reference to any specifically referenced changes in policy regarding construction manner for caps, that might help to clarify this issue.

Hope this is of some help, and again, sorry for the delay. You can use any of this in a forum post if you feel the need, Nick.

Gary W

[Lucky Duck]

I'm one of the nay sayers, but l'll add that I've kept one in my collection because I can't say for certain (will keep your offer in mind Gerard ). Not trying to convince anyone either way, just answering Dave Kane's question of why someone wouldn't vote yes.

Besides the odd plastic piping center, one reason I'm suspicious of these caps is because in the majority I have come across seem to be in rarer or more desirable piping colors. The ratio of Panzer & Cav to Infantry seems odd, as if tailored for collector market.

And there are just so many of them around, one Max show, mid 1990s I must have seen 50 of them, mostly with the same yellow liner material, mostly in the same unused condition. A couple looked to have been assembled using visors that had been stacked for a long time (if you've ever seen the stacks of surplus visors that were around till recently, you know the scuff markings / indendations I'm talking about). More than a few looked artificially aged. I've harbored doubts since then.

Souvenir hungry G.I.s with Yankee dollars bought a lot of parts daggers during the occupation, so parts caps seems logical to me.

Not offering any of the above as proof, or trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating my PoV.

Sincerely,
Ray

P.S. For the record, I've seen some WH communications gear with wires insulated in a UV negative flexible plastic.

[Dave Kane]

Ray, you are one of the very few 'plain speakers' on the Forum and as always I look forward to your commentary

No double talk...no outs, just good old observations based on years of collecting and observations.

I chose NOT to comment here only because those who know me or have communicated with me surely knew my stance/opinion on these types of caps.

As I told several members via Email or PM, I'd prefer to just let the thread evolve and it has very nicely.

Good work Nick...you rolled w/ the flow and got some answers. Now it's up to the younger members to absorb and define what their comfort zone is!!

[NTZ]

I would also like to add a second email from Gary Wilkins. He just wanted to clarify some of what he said in the first. Again Gary thank you for all your information. With out a doubt is turned the thread into something of solid substance.

Hi Nick,

looking back I see I should have proofed the original message before sending it! to clarify:

I am a collector, not a dealer, and have encountered many EREL caps over the years - but I simply do not have access to the volume of a big dealer, who by nature has the opportunity to handle far more than I ever will. I notice in a look over this thread (finally took some time) that Gerard S. of Relic Hunter is able to find time from his busy schedule to peruse the forum - I generally can't find such time, since I am merely an indentured servant slaving away for my basic income. I make next to nothing on publications.
In any case, in over 20 years of interest in Lubstein headgear, I have simply never come across any EREL with a pressed paper visor. If Gerard has seen many, then that certainly says something since his business allows him access to far more than I will ever be fortunate enough to handle. My collecting funds are sorely limited these days.
If a vet bring back, then it's generally undisputable.
So, I merely hypothesize based on all the info I have to hand about the company and the man RL, that such visors if used, were only used at the very end (in 1945), and I expect more due to a lack of availability (caused by loss of factories to bombs or capture), rather than cost saving "economy" reasons. The Vulkanfiber visors were not particularly expensive, and there seems to have been no materiel limitations on the cellulose used to make Vulkanfiber visors that I have been able to discover (it was not a rationed material) - so why any need to switch to a noticeably lesser quality item? There must have been other reasons, if Lubstein felt the need to use such material for visors.

Regarding the thin Luftwaffe Vulkanfiber visor, I meant to say that there is no Army-style, convexurved rim around the visor, rather only a fine line (no height) to give the impression of a narrow edge. When a picquee edge wrap was used (stitched on around the brim edge), the stitch holes tended to follow along the aforementioned line, and the holes are then visible if the picquee is falling off.

The Alkor sweatband I referred to, is the type with the leatherette material laminated to a fabric backing, with a sealer brushed over the back of the cloth. Pretty tough, pretty resilient (though it can dry out and the laminated leatherette then flakes off over time). I personally, have never seen an EREL made with the cheap pressed paper sort of sweatband (these tend to take a very characteristic wrinkled look due to age (and that's how the band in the pics posted in the thread looked to me in a quick glance, but reading the accompanying notes I see that it is some sort of leather according to the poster). In any case, in general if the band IS leather, no problem; if pressed paper, then the DL embossed mark shouldn't be there since it isn't leather.
I myself have never encountered the embossed "Deutsches Leder" (DL) mark on ANY EREL military sweatband, but perhaps Gerard has, I don't know.

The Kleiderkasse issue that was mentioned in the post, hypothesized that constraints on pricing that the military may have placed on caps purchased through the Kleiderkasse might have caused Lubstein to eventually have to drop quality simply to stay within price constraints - which theory I found very interesting, but not quite valid to the Kleiderkasse situation - this because he simply sold far more caps through other means that I doubt price constraints would have affected him to such a degree that he had to lower quality. Lubstein LIVED by quality.
This hypothesis would perhaps be better applied to contract cap production - the "Lieferungsm******252;tze" - these being caps made on large production contracts at government stipulated prices, where there COULD be issues, if production costs exceeded those limits; here there could conceivably have been some impact.(but I doubt it) - in any case, visor cap issue to enlisted men declined greatly after 1941, and especially after 1943 with the general issue of the M43 field cap - exactly when wartime material shortages and resulting price increases might really have started being felt.
Personally, I believe that Lubstein managed his finances (and everything else) so carefully that he would have overcome any difficulties, regardless - with the least impact possible on quality always foremost on his mind - within the limits of what the overtaxed, or even at times non-existent transport sytem in Berlin was able to deliver.

I have considerable material on the Lubstein company still to go through, including the inventory list I mentioned and the supplier list. I also have info on the Heinrich-Roller Strasse factory, and the Lubstein building - the EREL HAUS (which originally belonged to a Jewish firm that sold the building and equipment to Lubstein after closing up in 1939; the families moved to the US). I will consider posting a translation of Lubstein's 1946 historical resume on the forum a little later, rather than in a book.

Gary W.

Edited per Gary's request

[BenVK]

Seems that the evidence is stacking up against these caps being genuine Lubstein creations then. I must admit that the one thing that troubled me most about them is the DL sweatbands.

Does anyone know what Gary means by "visor cap issue to enlisted men dropped off greatly after 1941, and especially after 1943" What would be the reason for this?

[Paul McKee]

...Does anyone know what Gary means by "visor cap issue to enlisted men dropped off greatly after 1941, and especially after 1943" What would be the reason for this?

Wouldn't this have something to do with the same reasons the Waffenrock being ordered discontinued early in the war? Enlisted visor caps are hardly essential war material. It would be far more crucial to the war effort to spend increasingly precious resources on dressing and equipping a man for front-line service rather than for walking-out or parade.
Paul

[BenVK]

I guess you're right Paul but wasn't it regulations that they would have to have at least one visor?