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**ironfist** · 10-06-2017, 01:27 PM

help

Hello Guys .
There are old time collectors here that may be able to bring some proof here to this table about different makers.
If you have any proof such as a makers catalogue by anyone ,any written documents or period detailed pictures showing these early awards it would be great.
Please help as we all could do with moving the discussion on with these pieces, and not let the history just be left an unanswered question.
Best regards Pete

**Peter J.** · 10-07-2017, 06:16 AM

I'm speachless

. The very cross initially offered here as a I.Klasse has now all of a sudden transformed into a Grand Cross with an additional $2000 added to the sales price. I challange mr Turk with his 35 years of experience to present a plausible explanation.

respectfully
Peter

**ironfist** · 10-08-2017, 07:57 AM

oh dear

Gentlemen.PLEASE .
May some of you come forth from your silence .To have input in this discussion.
This cannot after 600 views just be left to Peter J and my deranged self.
We know there are some great minds out there on this subject that can surly shed a bit more light here.
Why has it gone so quiet ????
As for Mr Turk ,well that is shocking. Its bad enough to go on about Deschner all the time without any proper proof .He now claims a 50 mm award is now that of a Grand cross .Guess my 60mm one must be fake then.
Some of these people just make it up as they go along.
After many years of this we end up with made up crap being believed and taken by some as the norm .Then it is nearly impossible to untangle the mess ,it is very hard to convince someone they have brought a fake
Just like Mr Wittman when he was flogging those VERY VERY rare Olympic HJ knives so bloody rare he sold a bundle of them .He knew they were fakes but got on his high horse with a few friends and made a bloody big story up just to peddle his wears.They are still fake despite the grand waffle.
Sad and shocking.
Come on guys try to make a difference here input input... please we are trying to untangle this but we are struggling alone.
Best regards Pete

**Runic** · 10-23-2017, 09:02 PM

Pete,
I have a DAO First class, 900 stamped, 21 marked. And I am also aware of the many, many versions of this animal, the same in different verions and classes of the award. I have also seen what I consider to be outright astonishing fakes offered up, and then put up for sale, by otherwise reputable dealers.
Which makes me wonder - is there a catalogue list here on WAF which shows known real versions versus known fakes? Like there are for example on Heer awards?

God I hope so, if not let's start one.
I will offer photos of mine for comparison- whatever may befall.

Re: B Turk, I have had good experience with him, but have also found a not so obvious fake for sale on his site.
No offense Barry, it happens to the best dealers. We in the collecting community just hope to hell it is unintentional.

I am more than happy to give B Turk the benefit of the doubt.

So. My DAO is supposedly the real pattern, standard for such awards. I will be happy to post if anyone wants me to start this descent into finding the long needed truth.

Please someone tell me it is not necessary- that this has been explored on WAF on another thread!

Runic

**Runic** · 10-24-2017, 07:49 PM

Reading back over the posts here, I have to say I Used to be envious when I saw the 1937 Eagle Order original version, seeing that I only own one of the later, humble Godet 900/21 pieces.
Now, I must admit I'll keep my real Godet over anything else out there.
What's needed here isn't an analysis with pictures of what is known and accepted to be real by the collecting community - what's needed is a bloody crystal ball.
IMHO 😊
Just kidding. I'm sure there is a bottom to this abyss, and research may find it. But I for one have been involved with controversial medals up to my neck.
For the Adler, I will just stick with my humble Godet.

I truly hope the truth on these comes out.
R

**Gary Symonds** · 10-28-2017, 11:40 AM

I went to the emedal site and in addition to the Deschler Eagle Orders he had numerous Zimmerman DAOs for sale.

Maybe I missed this but what is the "hoard" of 2008 that is mentioned?

What about these Zimmermans?

**Pieter** · 10-28-2017, 01:16 PM

I know nothing about the order. I assume it is a real honoured award but if I would receive one like in the picture, I would send it back to the führer. That thing looks rubbish and cheap

**Gary Symonds** · 10-28-2017, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Pieter View Post

I know nothing about the order. I assume it is a real honoured award but if I would receive one like in the picture, I would send it back to the führer. That thing looks rubbish and cheap

Pieter. which badges are you referring to?

**Pieter** · 10-28-2017, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post

Pieter. which badges are you referring to?

All mentioned here in general. I know nothing about them ... but when I look at the picture in the start of the topic and the pictures provided on the site, I ask myself the question : I would not be happy to receive such an order by the state in that quality. I'd rather have a sum of money then hahaha

**Runic** · 10-28-2017, 06:18 PM

Peter J, Ironfist, and all,
Reading back over the whole thread, and then my posts, I feel I was too casual and flippant in my posts.

First, Pieter, I get your point of how ugly the piece posted at the start of the thread is. I agree, looks kind of crappy for the price, and for the prestige that went with it during the TR.

That said, let me assure you, the real deal was quite a beautiful and impressive award, not to mention proudly worn by its recipients, as those who own them will attest. Mind you, I'm talking about the real ones, that we are trying to nail down as real.

Guys, when I said I would post my version which I believe to be real, as a starting point for continued research, I later felt silly, given the info that has been published on the subject.
As you gentleman have mentioned, among others, we have Angolia, a reference I too used before the internet. Ailsby also did a very excellent analysis of this award in one of his books.

Here is what I believe to be true, from my years of collecting experience and from the various sources.

And Maybe Just As Important, from years of Following What Is Available Out There For Sale. And don't ever think that following what dealers offer for sale, year after year, isn't important. You see sudden trends - one relatively recent example-- where the hell did all the Third Reich metal wall signs, with corroded post holes, suddenly come from in recent years? They weren't offered if you go back far enough. They are a new supply.

Go back further into the past, and you see the same thing again and again - many different dealers start offering items at the same time, which had been, until then, rarities or non-existent.

My 900/21 marked Godet Eagle Order First Class is the later stamped version. But it has been long believed and accepted without doubt as true, that the earliest versions of this award, were hand-crafted, and also by Godet! These are extremely rare. Supposedly You can find them with the L/50 mark as well, but these are very hard to find. The ball top, ring suspender can also be found with small capital letter stamped into it. Very Rare too.

Deschler never figured into this, that I know of, for decades and decades of collecting. Neither did Deumer. Am I right? NEVER. I'm not being a know-it-all, please anyone who knows better, somehow, prove me wrong. If you can. But do it with proof, definitively.

I think, from what has been proven over the years, that Godet had the original contract, hand-made them, then as demand increased, they started stamping them to speed production.

Now, I see dealers offering Eagle Orders that have patterns similar to the very rare 1937 pattern, but suddenly by other makers. Or no maker named. I also see "original issue" cases with these awards, that a few years ago were outright called fascimile, reproduction, fake cases, by the dealers who offered them. Now dealers offer them as original cases, to go with their obviously fake Eagle Orders, that were never before offered until now. But they are suddenly original.

Just today, I saw two questionable Eagle Orders with "Original Cases," offered by what I had believed to be an honest dealer.
Now I totally agree that we should make a concerted attempt to salvage the true history of these awards, before the greed of some dealers makes it more and more difficult to see the truth through their cloud of fakes they are shamelessly foisting off on the innocent collecting public.

Just my two cents, and I feel like I'm coming down on the right side of this issue.

Kudos to everyone who contributed to this thread. It needed to be said. Please add to this, anyone and everyone, I think your opinions so far are extremely valid. I'm glad I got on board with you guys.

R

**Gary Symonds** · 10-28-2017, 09:41 PM

Runic, very well written. You make very good points.

Changing the subject, I still have had no response to my questions about the 2008 "hoard," and the Zimmerman DAO's, and they are many, on emedals website?

**Pieter** · 10-29-2017, 03:30 AM

Runic spot on, well written and an great reference for the future!

**Runic** · 10-29-2017, 07:32 AM

Thanks Pieter and Gary!

Gary, the '2008 hoard,' and the many Zimmerman DAOs, are a head-scratcher for me too! 🤔

R

**Peter J.** · 10-29-2017, 09:38 AM

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=634922

It's a long read, but the most comprehensive on the topic.

cheers
Peter

**Runic** · 10-29-2017, 05:28 PM

Peter,
Thanks for posting this link. It's a long read, but worth it, and it taught me, again, that :

1. we have a heck of a lot of knowledgeable folks on WAF;
2. I always am in a continuing state of learning in our hobby, and there are lots of folks here who know more than I do.

Ok, it is possible that Zimmerman was a subcontractor to Godet on Eagle Orders. The proof seems to be that the font on the "20" of Zimmerman was theirs exclusively, and only the "1" was changed to make a "21" subcontracted for Godet. It's plausible. Maybe they both used the same font? Maybe not.

However, Peter, I have to agree with you 100% on the bronze, gold washed Eagle Orders. You make the same point I was trying to make. One item shows up, of doubtful origin, then becomes accepted. A celebrated dealer admits he has never seen one in bronze before, this is the only one. Then, they start turning up, hand over fist, and are "accepted as genuine."

That's the point I was trying to make about watching what dealers offer over the years. In my very humble opinion, the bronze gold-washed DAOs are modern creations, and I wouldn't come near one.

The originals were made in gold-plated silver, as befitted their importance; also sometimes in genuine gold, as in the one bestowed on Ribbentrop and probably the diamond encrusted one given to Mussolini. If they were later made of zinc, that makes sense because of the shortage of strategic war metals.

But why do DAOs suddenly turn up in bronze, in the 2000's? Wasn't bronze a strategic material? We don't have late war bronze pieces like we do zinc pieces. And some of these bronze Eagle Orders are in beautiful condition from the pictures. Where have they been hiding all these years?? Beneath a bombed out factory?

Imho

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