Gau München Commemorative 1923-1933

[laurens]

Thanks Joe for posting the picture. I must have a blackout because you're absolutly right about München were the picture is taken.

It was said in previous posts in this topic that the Festabzeichen was preceeded the BO but was continued to be awarded.

That's what I tried to mention with the relation between the BO and the Festabzeichen, in wich I don't believed and believe.

The picture was taken in 1938 during the 9. November Gedenken. Pretty good reason to wear it that day.

-The name of the badge says it all 'Festabzeichen' , for celebrating the most important event in NSDAP history.

-No period publication such as Nat.Soz. Jahrbuch and the Organisationbuch der NSDAP published it (wich they have done if the Festabzeichen was really something special)

Without any new break-through information (wich is in my opion quiet impossible) we have to agree to disagree....

But I'm positive that when the break-through information is there, Greg has to admit he was wrong

[JoeW]

Laurens, you are sure it is 1938? I think 1935 was the only year Hitler did not wear a cross-strap. From some different photos of the 1935 event, it seems that the relatives of the fallen were grouped in chairs in front of each of the respective Ehrentempels wherein the remains would be placed. I was using the reports of the Neunte Elfte in my police magazines, but coverage of the event ceased after 1936.

Greg, I totally agree with your idea that a recipient greatly valued their Festabzeichen and would wear it again and again at subsequent 9/11 events. No one is doubting that.

[laurens]

The Bildarchive said 1938, but I saw more mistakes so you could be right.

[Gregorio Torres]

T Greg has to admit he was wrong

Could you tell me please what wrong I have to admit?
Have I to cease to search about the following status of this abzeichen after its creation?
Have I to admit your thesis just because you do not admit the other thesis?
Do you have some ultimate proof that between 1933 and 1945 the Gau authorities did not give an award status at Gau level to this badge?
You are saying this pictures with the SA wearing the badge is dated in 1938. Do you know some other example where a picture showing a tinnie being worn in a formal meeting (and with the Fuhrer himself) 5 years after the event which the badge was made for? I think this is enough to give some chance to the posibility of something more happens with this badge after its institution.

[David North]

Dear Laurens

Perhaps we can all keep an "open mind" on this badge?

I must admit that I am with Greg on this one, insofar as prima facie, we are looking at a documented (thankyou) "Festabzeichen". Having said that, there may be a little more to this badge than meets the eye, although I do not know what, although I would like to know (if). Greg is not declaring or being definitive and instead, merely pondering and of course, eagerly researching.

I wonder though how can you predict the impossibility of the "break through" information? It may be there? Who knows?

As such, perhaps it is a tad ungracious to put Greg on the spot by suggesting that he has to admit that he is wrong. Instead, perhaps we should be encouraging the resolute attitude of active and eager research shown by Greg, rather than the non questioning acceptance based on one single (repeat - one single) piece of period information?

Regards,

David

[laurens]

Hi Greg,

My last sentence was just a joke.

Let us all believe what we believe, in other words agree to disagree like I said before.

Best,
Laurens

[Gregorio Torres]

David, Thank you very much for your words and support. You have explained better than me my feelings. Thank you.
Laurens: No problem. We´ll continue learning all together.

[speedytop]

A wonderful discussion!

Let's first have a look on the (wrong) name here and in several national and international books:

Gau München Commemorative (Badge) 1923-1933

Commemorative is okay, but why "Gau München"?
The official name in a handbook is:

"Gedenkfeier des 9. November 1923 in München", Gedenkfeier = commemoration.

We don't see the word Gau, because it was not a Gau event. It was a national event, hold in Munich (Munich in the Gau München-Oberbayern).
A Gau München does not exist.


The official name in the Völkischer Beobachter is "Festabzeichen für den 9. November in München".
For the word "Fest" we can find celebration/festival/festivity:

Festival Badge for the 9th November in Munich

"Festabzeichen" have a long tradition in Germany. You can find them still today. They are badges for a normally annually recurring event.
For example:
http://einkaufchip.de/sortiment/fest...FRk03wodnVR11Q
http://www.neumeyer-abzeichen.de/Art...tabzeichen.htm

It was and is not unusual (if the festival badge is nicely done!), to wear such a Festabzeichen a year or several years later, without or together with the new Festabzeichen for the new year(s). To show, look, I had been here the last year(s) too!


Back to the real official "Gau badges".
We can find different period names: Gau-Ehrenzeichen (Gauehrenzeichen) and Traditions-Gauabzeichen.
For example Doehle: 1941 and 1942/1943 Traditions-Gauabzeichen and 1944/1945 Gauehrenzeichen.
The number of the badges increased, and the variations also increased partly.
First 7 badges, then 8 (Essen) and later 10 (Wartheland, Sudetenland)
Osthannover first only in Bronze (the hollow event badge!), later in Silber and Gold.

An example for the "importance" of the Gau badges. In the first handbooks "Schlag nach!" from 1938 and 1939 you can find, together with the real "Ehrenabzeichen der NSDAP" Blutorden, GPB etc., one Traditions-Gauabzeichen, the first for Sachsen etc.
In later editions the Gauabzeichen had been deleted.

The last Doehle edition is from the end of 1944/beginning 1945.
Do really anyone believe, that at that time there had been another badge with "major orders" like a Festabzeichen from 1933?

Uwe

[ErichS]

This looks to possibly be a 9 Nov. Munich Festival badge in wear. Don't know the date of the photo though.

[jeffhan373]

This photo was taken on November 8, 1933, at the 10th Anniversary celebration. The man in front of Hitler with the Festabzeichen on is Rudolf Schuessler, the first Business Manager of the NSDAP and a fellow soldier with Hitler in the 2nd Bavarian Infantry Regiment in 1919. As far as I know, Schuessler did not participate in the 1923 Putsch and was not a Blood Order holder. I wonder if the Festabzeichen was given to all those who participated in the ceremonies themselves, rather than Putsch veterans.

I have the VB for November 8 which Laurens mentions, with the Sonderbeilage on the 9th of November, but in my copy there's no photo or mention of the Festabzeichen. Was the illustration in the Munich edition or the Berlin one?

[Erich B.]

Re the date of the photo with the SA NCO wearing the badge--he's wearing long service stripes on his cuffs, and it appears they are 25mm or so below the cuff edge. The order for long service stripes replacing the long service chevron was issued by Lutze in early November 1934 (amending an earlier order involving shorter length Tresse that did not go entirely around the cuff worn on 1 sleeve). In September 1935 the braid was ordered to be raised to 4mm below the cuff of the tunic effective 1. October 1935. So, assuming this SA NCO is following the regulations, the photo would have been taken between November 1934 and October 1935. Giving the NCO some allowance for having it taken to the tailor, it could potentially date from either November 34 or November 35.
Erich

[JoeW]

.................I have the VB for November 8 which Laurens mentions, with the Sonderbeilage on the 9th of November, but in my copy there's no photo or mention of the Festabzeichen. Was the illustration in the Munich edition or the Berlin one?

Jeff, Laurens wrote that it was the Munich edition. What I had mentioned in my email to you.

[speedytop]

Hi jeffhan373,

"I wonder if the Festabzeichen was given to all those who participated in the ceremonies themselves, rather than Putsch veterans."

Normally you must buy a Festabzeichen. And everybody could buy a Festabzeichen, if he wanted it.

Uwe

[ErichS]

Hi jeffhan373,

"I wonder if the Festabzeichen was given to all those who participated in the ceremonies themselves, rather than Putsch veterans."

Normally you must buy a Festabzeichen. And everybody could buy a Festabzeichen, if he wanted it.

Uwe

From the evidence presented, one probably purchased the badge to help fund the event.

[Richard]

Here's what the Organisationsbuch (1938) shows on the pages illustrating honor badges and meeting badges elevated to honor status. This one isn't on there. This seems to indicate this was never elevated to a Ehrenzeichen status.
Richard V