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**JoeW** · 07-09-2011, 07:59 AM

Greg, it is a pleasure to "debate" and learn with you and all on this forum. "This hobby is a continuing education" is a signature I use on other forums. Perhaps I should use it here.

I do not wish to demean/lessen the work of these authors. To put in the time and effort to assemble the text and illustrations is a laborious task. I know from the few article I write for The Military Advisor. But I only point out a fact. Militaria authors do use the information of their predecessors. Sometimes they cite the earlier author and other times the "information" is only presented as their work. This occurs in books on medals or blades. And if the first statement is never supported, but later repeated, it becomes a "fact".

**laurens** · 07-09-2011, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Greg, you wrote "Well, in your opinion, authors as Angolia, Littlejohn, Lumsdem, even Formann put a tinnie among the awards in their books? Why?" The answer is that later authors often repeat what the first author wrote. That's the fact Jack. It happens often. And without documentation, it is just an opinion.

Right you're Joe, you hit the nail on the head.

I think you must be very careful when you make any speculations, and if you do, say so.
I don't think the authors mentioned by Greg found any proove for their opinion, otherwise they have placed it.

My source is the Völkischer Beobachter wich is pretty secure. Untill anybody proove me wrong, my statement is that this badge just celebrates the event. In my opinion has nothing to do with the BO, but with the event.

Someone who could post a picture here can send me a PM for the picture.

**JoeW** · 07-09-2011, 09:45 AM

At the request of Laurens, I am posting this clipping from the Voelkischer Beobachter dated 8.11.33 that does conclusively identify this badge as a Festabzeichen.

It is wonderful to be able to view this source material. Thank you for sharing Laurens.

**Gregorio Torres** · 07-09-2011, 10:16 AM

Thank you for sharing this source with us. It´s a point for you.
Thank you very much as this help to clarify the origin of this badge. Anycase, it doesn´t prove "conclusively" its ultimate nature, as we have examples of other Third Reich badges wich appeared as Festabzeichen and became awards, as the Brunschweig SA-Treffen 1931 and the Reichsparteitag 1929.
Searching must continue, but yours, is one of the best contribution to clarify the origin of this amazing badge, as the pictures posted by Erich shown that this became something more than a Festabzeichen.
Thank you again.
About the work of the above mentioned researchers, I insist, we must be respectfull with those who spent a part of their life studing these topics. So if they say something about a badge it must be based in something more than a copy-work, you can be sure, and I know personally to some of them and I trust in they honesty. If they don´t say anything more about this specific badge and its origin the reason must be the same because they don´t say anything about a lot of the other items analyzed: They have to describe more than 500 awards in a book. No details are allowed in such a book, specially in this kind of "second line" badges.
Thank you again Laurens for your contribution and Joe for debating (I used a wrong word "argue" in my last post. I´m sorry)

**Erich B.** · 07-09-2011, 03:52 PM

Laurens,
Fantastic! That, I believe, is the first time I've seen any period mention of this badge. I knew it was not related to the Blood Order, but not that it was a Fest badge. Thanks for providing the picture!
I'm assuming that, like the 1929 and 1933 Nürnberg badges, this one was authorized to be worn after the event, at least for a few years.
Was there also an article about the 10 year anniversary festivities in München with the photo?
Erich

**laurens** · 07-09-2011, 04:45 PM

Joe: Thank you for posting

Greg: Thanks for your kind words and discussion. Always a pleasure.

Erich: In fact it's a special edition (Sonderbeilage) of the VB about the 9. November with lots of information.

**der-hase-fee** · 07-09-2011, 05:00 PM

I am just reading Dr. Rosten's "Und Ihr Habt Doch Gesiegt" book. The festivities around the 10th anniversary of the Putsch are described at length. I think this is what the badge refers to. So an attendee badge as suggested !

**ErichS** · 07-09-2011, 06:44 PM

Well we all keep learning in this hobby of ours. With the proof shown by Laurens from the VB, I must now change my opinion and agree that the badge was for the celebration of the 10th anniversary of the Putsch and no more a poor mans BO. GOOD WORK LAURENS!

Best, Erich

**ETN** · 07-09-2011, 06:50 PM

It's very exciting to see this information come to light

**George Stimson** · 07-09-2011, 07:52 PM

This is a great thread!

**JoeW** · 07-10-2011, 12:09 AM

ErichS, I told Laurens I would search my period police magazine of that date for any info and sure enough the 9.November 1933 celebration was covered in depth. Of interest was a group of photos, one of which showed men with the same odd arm band displayed in the second of your two photos in post #4. The photo on the police magazine is identified as "the current Obergruppenfuehrer Heines with Oberleutnant Rosshach in the old Freikorp uniform." So I would surmise that that photo showing the Festabzeichen was taken during the 9.11.33 ceremonies.

And like Andreas' book "Und Ihr Habt Doch Gesiegt", the article describes the 10th anniversary of the Putsch in detail. Many of those present are listed and some of the speeches printed. In particular was this sentence from Staatsminister Wagner (Gauleiter): "Wir sind stolz darauf, diesen Tag heute feiern zu können." - We are proud of it to be able to celebrate this day today. The Bavarians were holding a celebration of the anniversary of the Putsch.

One fascinating sentence in the speech of Bavarian Minister President Siebert remarked that the Bavarian state administraion was creating teh Adolf Hitler Museum of the National Awakening. Anyone ever hear of that before?

**Jon Fish** · 07-10-2011, 05:32 AM

Outstanding piece of luck that Laurens found and posted this article as it finally puts to bed the mystery behind the badge ... or does it?
Do we know what the criteria for the badge was? Was it for former putchists or was it available to buy at the event to the public? Or most likely-was it for those who took part or participated in the 10 year celebrations or their planning?
Those are interesting questions. I have several of these badges so its great that the details are fianlly coming out.

**ErichS** · 07-10-2011, 09:19 AM

We still know that the the badge is related to the events of the 9th of nov, even if only for the 10th anniversey of the event. Still a very historical badge in it's own right. I'm sure that those who were there in 23 wore the badge even just for the celebrations because as of yet there was no award yet to set them a part from others who were not there from the beginning. We also know that the badge continued to be worn long after the celebrations in the example of the photo that I posted of the SS Austrian man dated 1935. Again thanks for the great research done on this thread to enhance our knowledge of this badge.

**JoeW** · 07-10-2011, 10:55 AM

Jon, to me the term Festabzeichen connotes a tinnie, that may have gained in stature after the party to be continued in wear. We don't know. All we know is what it was called and that the Tenth Anniversary was quite a celebration.

I don't know if Andreas' book "Und Ihr Habt Doch Gesiegt" contained any photos, but the police magazine article did. Unfortunately, the focus was not the best of those of the celebration, but at least one shows the Festabzeichen in wear. This photo is titled "The Fuhrer amongst the old Fighters in the Sterneckerbraeu". The man to the left of the leaning Hitler is wearing what must be the Festabzeichen.

The first awardings of the GPB were made in Munich during this celebration. So it is difficult to determine if the next two photos are GPBs or the Festabzeichens.

This first photo is described as taken during the unveiling ceremony of the Mahnmal in the Feldherrnhalle. Notice the badge below Hitler's left pocket flag. It is not directly above the EKI where he usually wore it. It this a Festabzeichen or his newly acquired GPB that he has not figured out where to place? If a large GPB, it couldn't have been worn anywhere without the loops added to the blouse. The Festabzeichen had a pin that could pierce the cloth of the blouse.

Finally, this photo of Hitler and Schwarz on the balcony of the Braun House, shows a pin on Schwarz that by its position is most likely a GPB. The light on Hitler makes recognizing his hardware diffcult.

**David North** · 07-10-2011, 10:59 AM

Quite remarkable I think as to how this thread has so wonderfully developed and I echo the congratulations to Laurens in relation to the period VB image that was so kindly and generously supplied.

As others have alluded though, there may be a little more to this badge than just being a celebration item and as originally suggested by Jon, I wonder if the badge had a short period of status similar to the 1929 RPT, the 1931 SA Treffen and the 1933 RPT?

Regards,

David

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