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**gt1234** · 09-30-2014, 03:50 PM

I visited friend of mine and we make pictures of both badges, he dug his badge himself about 20 Years ago , do You think it's a "fake" to ????

Regards

Grzegorz

Originally posted by Matthew View Post

Of course your Highness! I am sorry I asked!
You showed the second variety in the same picture with your silver badge. Either you have it in your possession or the pic comes from the person who 'found it'. Or both of them. Again.

**Matthew** · 09-30-2014, 03:57 PM

so you found one, your friend found another- third one- is it your other friend's?

Originally posted by gt1234 View Post

I visited friend of mine and we make pictures of both badges, he dug his badge himself about 20 Years ago , do You think it's a "fake" to ????

Regards

Grzegorz

I have no idea as I can not see much details & the verso is obscured which is why I asked for close-ups.
Not what I would call a typical hardware.
Bolt like that, man, not only would that thing be secured but depending on the length you could probably screw it directly to the guy ribcage.
Taking about safe!

**Stan** · 10-01-2014, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Matthew View Post

Any validity to that? Any proof? If they were Old Fighters, why would they be ineligible for those first time around?

Weitze has one Gau Danzig. The other is a joke. One at triple the price of the other- must be the envelope that elevated the price.

cheers

Matt

Matt, you have misquoted me. I actually said "Could be that the 925 version was an Honour award" not "the 925 version was an honour award". There is a world of difference between the two statements.

And I still think that this could be the answer to there being two versions of this award. I have in my collection an AH GPB awarded to Adolf Kunstmann. Kunstmann was a party member and would have qualified for award of the GPB had he not had a two year break in membership prior to 1933. He applied and applied for a retrospective award and finally received an Honour award in 1943 (I have 160 pages of evidence).

Sophie Boettjer received her Gold Gau Ost Hannover in 1940 much later than other awards in 1935.

Is it impossible to imagine that the 925 version of the Gau Danzig Honour Badge could have been a special honour award?

Stan

**Thomas Bendixen** · 10-01-2014, 03:48 AM

Originally posted by Matthew View Post

I have no idea as I can not see much details & the verso is obscured which is why I asked for close-ups.
Not what I would call a typical hardware.
Bolt like that, man, not only would that thing be secured but depending on the length you could probably screw it directly to the guy ribcage.
Taking about safe!

Hi Matt, I know this isn't really comparable but I know that the USSR WW2 order of the red Star has a 1,4 cm long pin (don't know the correct word) for securing it to the uniform with a disk. My thoughts were, like yours, that it wouldn't be very comfortable to throw yourself to the Ground and land on a device like that.

Thanks for sharing your research!

Kr. Thomas

**Stan** · 10-01-2014, 05:16 AM

Stange as it may seem, some political badges did indeed have very long bolts. The longest one I have seen measured 16mm.

I have always assumed there must be a logical explanation and it has to be that there was a device kept inside the pocket through which the bolt passed to keep it erect and secure.

Stan

**Matthew** · 10-01-2014, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Stan View Post

And I still think that this could be the answer to there being two versions of this award.

Sophie Boettjer received her Gold Gau Ost Hannover in 1940 much later than other awards in 1935.

Is it impossible to imagine that the 925 version of the Gau Danzig Honour Badge could have been a special honour award?

Stan

You are absolutely right Stan- there are two versions of this award. Both documented in period sources: one with Alter Kampfer inscription, the other one without it.

Sophie Boettjer received her award in 1940 in the same form as those who received it earlier and later- that's just there was only one type of Gau Ost Hannover badge so that should not really surprise anyone.
I know CA suggested somewhere that the very first awards were of the solid variety while later ones were the hollow ones but that only held true until a grouping from 1942 surfaced with the solid type award. While his argument was that the Urkunde was probably married with the badge at a later date I remain unconvinced tracing the grouping to its previous owner.

BTW- that award was first awarded in 1933- not 1935.
As with any other Gau Badge, it was awarded for either being an early member of the Party (Alte Garde) or for outstanding service to the Gau. They kept on being awarded until at least late 1943 that we know of. In the same configuration nonetheless.
It is immensely interesting topic- at least to me- and one that fully warrants its own thread so I am sure we can discuss it elsewhere without polluting this Gau Danzig discussion.

Gau Thuringen would be another one we could look at it terms of its initial awarded type and the the later type as given out to those most deserving for their service to Thuring rather than their early NSDAP numbers: same badge

Could the '925' silver be the special honor award? As I already stated my reasons why- I remain skeptical. Not only of what it could and could not be but first and foremost did it or did it not even exist 70 odd years ago.

As for the bolt-on variety: we're discussing something we can't even determine if it's real to begin with but let's assume it is.
Well, if it is, and judging by the clean spots with apparently undisturbed finish where the normal hinge/catch would be present we would have to presume that the bolt attachment was factory applied before the run-of-the-mill hardware would become part of this decoration. Then I would have to say that would be the most unusual method and one I would be skeptical of until proven otherwise.

cheers

Matt

**Matthew** · 10-01-2014, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Stan View Post

Stange as it may seem, some political badges did indeed have very long bolts. The longest one I have seen measured 16mm.

Stan

But my question would be were they factory applied variations or where they altered later on?
As Thomas mentioned above Russians were apparently using that method quite a bit, I can't say I recall any German decoration featuring that type of factory applied attachment but like most- I have not seen everything. (To clarify- I am not talking about clamshell method but rather nut and bolt one)

cheers

Matt

**Matthew** · 10-01-2014, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Stan View Post

I think that it is fair to say that CA may have got it right about there being two makers - Paul Kuenst of Berlin and M.ST.&S. The difference in style could be because the 925 Silver version was an Honour Award given to PG's who were ineligible for the award the first time around.

Originally posted by Stan View Post

Matt, you have misquoted me. I actually said "Could be that the 925 version was an Honour award" not "the 925 version was an honour award". There is a world of difference between the two statements.

I must have less of a grasp on English language than I thought- please forgive me my friend. I could've sworn you meant 'the difference in style could be because the 925 was an honor award' as in 'the difference could be, the award was'

cheers

Matt

**Stan** · 10-02-2014, 04:58 AM

Looking at the pictures of the 925 fakes which, as Matthew has already pointed out are available on two UK dealers websites, I noticed a difference which IMO proves that the fakes being offered are indeed different to the original piece which Grzegorz posted at the beginning, the piece in my own collection and the one which CA owns.

Matt refers to these in post #18 as "Fakes of the Fakes", assuming them to be cast copies of a copy. But they cannot be for the following reasons.

You will notice on the two photos below the veins on the bottom two acorn leaves. On the original they are present but on the fake they are absent- which you would expect as the details on cast copies would never be as fine.

However, and this is the important part, whilst the acorn cups on the fake are well defined, on the original they are polished smooth.

IMO this proves that the fake badge is not cast from an original badge.

In case anyone is wondering why my badge has an engraved Danzig shield, it was most likely damaged during the manufacturing process and filed off and engraved. There are more details which I could elaborate on but I think I have mentioned the most significant ones. In any case, if nothing else, collectors will in future be able to distinguish between an original 925 piece and a fake.

As always, these are just my opinions.

Stan

Attached Files

**Thorsten B.** · 10-02-2014, 06:02 AM

Great possibility to compare!!

Thank you for adding these pics and I agree 100%.

**Matthew** · 10-02-2014, 03:52 PM

The type of badge you compare against your own is most definitely a cast impression of the type you own- aside from a near perfect match (including pebbling), I say 'near' meaning as close as casting process will allow, the measurements come in at about 96-97% of what you tout as 'original'.
From what I understand, after an object has been cast, it still needs to go through a 'cleaning' process that helps removing unwanted 'additions' and some of the imperfections caused by the casting process.
I would think it is why some of the details are either obscured or missing altogether (like some of the veining), as for the acorns being grooved vs smooth ones on yours- it would not be the first one where whoever was cleaning the piece, applied those by hand to take away from otherwise awful design in a bid to enhance it. There are other Gau Badges that while cast, feature additional details, not seen on originals.

For those interested, the type as offered through UK vendors come in at 45.50 mm by 37.44 mms.
I had a chance to document only one of those so there might be some slight differences but they are still a far cry from the measurements of the disputed type as owned by Grzegorz or Stan- they come at mid 47's by high 38 mms.

Your explanation as to why your badge has been filed off in the center is IMO far fetched. Unless it was the last chunk of silver owned by the firm cranking those out, it would make no sense whatsoever to take a chance by shipping something this altered when they could just as easily throw it back into the pot and make another one. But on the other hand, it makes perfect sense if they were 'home made' so to speak.

Either way- as interesting as it's been- this exercise in futility leads us nowhere as this happens to be one of those aspects of this discussion that almost everyone agrees one (well, with the exception of few UK Dealers apparently).
The badge is a fake. IMO another reincarnation of a fantasy design that is yet to be proven to exist per 1945.

Picture credit- Ailsby Blog

cheers

Matt

Attached Files

DANZIG+BADGE+variations+REVISED+IMAGE+1.jpg (119.3 KB, 212 views)

**Matthew** · 10-02-2014, 05:24 PM

Sorry, wrong attachment posted previously.

cheers

Matt

Attached Files

comp.jpg (210.0 KB, 212 views)

**Peter J.** · 10-04-2014, 10:28 AM

Thanks to the participants of this thread for an interesting discussion

Btw, have noticed the pieces shown in Foreman's book?

cheers
Peter

**Matthew** · 10-04-2014, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Peter J. View Post

Thanks to the participants of this thread for an interesting discussion

Btw, have noticed the pieces shown in Foreman's book?

cheers
Peter

The piece shown in his 2001 edition of 'Guide to Third...' shows Paul Kust version. But at the same time, when you flip the page you can see a couple of mistakes pertaining to other Gau Badges so take it for what its worth..

cheers

Matt

**jabnus** · 10-04-2014, 02:49 PM

Not want to push anything, but how about Microforensics? On a subject like this, on which some of the more respected members of the (political) collecting community appear to have different opinions, this could be a very usefull tool?

best regards,
Gaston

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