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**Bob Hritz** · 10-10-2014, 11:05 PM

There are a number of noble metals, but those we are concerned with are gold, silver and copper. Alloys using any of these as their base would be used to make gau decorations.

As for tinnies that resemble gau badges, that is easy to explain. I am sure the sales of lookalike tinnies were better because folks like to look like the important awardees of gau badges.

Bob Hritz

**Rick C** · 10-11-2014, 07:26 AM

All interesting information and opinions but, measurements? Please (anyone) relate for the record, either the measurements of certified, authentic awards or descriptive specifications/data from the manufacturers.

What I’m getting at, obviously, is were these things 44 x 36? If they were then any cast fakes would be smaller is that not correct or are we accepting that Souval or other cut a new die to manufacture their fakes?

**Matthew** · 10-11-2014, 10:09 AM

As previously mentioned Kust badges measure at around 35 x 43 mm.
Souval most definitely created a new die to produce their badges.
Silver badges are much bigger than the Souval pieces and Kust badges.
If there are any cast Souval pieces I would tend to think they were made using Souval as a model but not by the famed Vienna Company I don't think- simply someone who had a Souval badge within his reach

cheers

Matt

**Matthew** · 10-11-2014, 11:13 AM

Post war produced badges by Souval are definitely not the biggest danger here due to their distinctive design. It is the cast pieces that have a potential to wreak the most havoc amongst collectors. These things being so rare, anyone will rarely have any chance to compare against another and the fakers have been cashing in on that fact for decades.
Let's take this example below. Entry level cast. The most damage it would cause to a collector would be if you threw it at him. Call it an amateurs' attempt.

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**Matthew** · 10-11-2014, 11:16 AM

Second attempt is much better. The cast is much cleaner, most things that are not supposed to be there are eliminated presenting us with a relatively nice looking piece. This one will fool quite a bit of collectors.

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**Matthew** · 10-11-2014, 11:18 AM

For the ones resisting the charm of the piece we have something special.
Let's suppose we get presented with a grouping or say few items 'found together'.
Makes it a bit more convincing, doesn't?

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**Matthew** · 10-11-2014, 11:31 AM

And yes, there are a few problems but no one is perfect right?
Hardware is not what you might call the most usual as for most part that has to come off when casting so something new has to be put in its place, etc. Whatever the story- whether found in a nazi outhouse, on the roof or a whorehouse, the state of preservation must be good or at least good enough to still command a premium dollar. Sure, perhaps it is worth distributing couple of acid half-eaten samples to prove the point but not too much- don't want to saturate the market after all. Remember- you're paying for rarity!

Yes, there is some risk involved-lets say someone will ask what are the odds of finding something this rare with something almost equally rare. Why would anyone bury a badge worn on his uniform everyday with a medal typically only worn on parades and official functions in a field 20 miles of the nearest city? That makes little sense. Then again- when was the last time anyone used common sense when there are few sparkly things dangling in front of his eyes? Maybe the previous owner was so pissed he had to leave his home and run away from Russians, he insisted on doing so in style- in his parade uniform! He got hit with a showel over the head by Sasha, who cut off his wrist for the gold watch (the corpse was missing it when we found it), but as everyone knows Russians don't do medals so they left them behind. Which is why now you get your chance to buy them BUT don't think too much about it- too late, too late will be the cry when the man with the bargains will pass you by!

Most demanding customers get their badges with a scratched name, rank and town of the previous owner so that the piece can be fully documented. After all- we all want to put the picture of Dr. Panzerkampfwagen something-or-other next to the badge and say yeah, got your badge, now got your mug too!

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**Matthew** · 10-13-2014, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by gt1234 View Post

Hi , Matt as ususlly You are dishonest
Grzegorz

Speaking about honesty- apparently there is another WAF member Grzegorz T here who sources out rare ground dug items found in Gdansk area: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ber.php?u=5340
That wouldn't be someone you know, would it?
Interestingly enough he stopped posting on WAF when you started.

Almost forgot- another cast fake. This one 'transitional' you might say. The front details are still pretty bad but they already switched to a oblong pin plate on the verso from the wire hardware.
This one still lacks the plating but that gets changed as they get 'found' later one.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

cheers

Matt

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**Stan** · 10-15-2014, 09:41 AM

I have avoided commenting further on this thread as I was away for a while.

Now that I am back, I will continue to contribute to the thread provided cool heads prevail and we can keep the discussion focused on the badge.

Matthew claimed earlier in the thread that someone he knows had the silver content of his badge tested and the result was not 925 Silver.

I really think that Matthew should now post photos of the badge in question together with the result. Otherwise we won't know if the owner of the badge had a version of the type tested which is a known fake or the type shown by Grzegorz at the beginning of the thread. My feeling is that it was the accepted Fake which was tested.

Now that I am back home I took my own Gau Danzig 925 badge into town today to show to a bullion dealer who sells second hand jewellry and buys gold and silver- you know the kind of shop I mean. I told him my concern that the badge was either not 925 silver but another grade or maybe just base metal with a 925 stamp put on by a faker. How I enquired could I find out the truth?

He examined my badge and told me that I was worrying about nothing and that the badge was indeed made of genuine silver. If I wanted, he could scrape off a sliver from the edge and test it in acid but he would be wasting his time as the result would show that it was silver. I asked about the content- might it be 800 grade and not 925? He replied that the scrap value of my badge was £10. Why would anyone bother to use 800 silver when 925 silver is readilly available at an almost identical price?

He handed the badge back to me and said that in his expert opinion the silver content was correct.

Stan

**dragnet** · 10-15-2014, 11:59 AM

Stan, if a test was done then the silver content would have been 100% identified, i pressume thats why there is a test kit at a bullion dealer, there opinion sometimes needs to be backed up.

**Peter J.** · 10-15-2014, 12:16 PM

I'm not so sure a silver content can be verified by an acid test, but merely the silver as such.

cheers
Peter

**Matthew** · 10-15-2014, 12:29 PM

I have avoided giving a detailed answer as to the content on the badge in question not to give anyone pumping them out ('finding them') any ideas, not that it matters I guess- if they are still being done that can be corrected very easily.
Let me just say that it is silver and it is over 800 but definitely under 900. At least on the one badge tested.

To answer your question as to which badge was tested: let's just say that the one that was, was also measured. It came back as 47.4 x 38.6. That should give you an idea if it was the "UK Special" or the purported 'original'. (29.41 g).

Don't take it the wrong way Stan but it looks like your silversmith is wasting his talents determining silver strength just by looking at items. If he can do the same when it comes to testing for pregnancy he would make a killing!

Scrap value has nothing to do with what was and was not used. It comes to what is and is not available. Looking around the room, I have few things in different silver here but (at least according to the markings) none are 925.
I don't think anyone was overly worried about anyone testing them when sold. If they did they would use 925 silver.
BTW- I never (nor anyone else here) suggested that the badges in question could be plated something. The silver quality itself was being scrutinized.
Your guy looked at purpoted Gau Danzig badge in terms of how much its worth for scrap so in that respect yes, why fake something like that. I am sure you might find few punters willing to top that price for the badge and what they might offer will not be close to its spot value.

cheers

Matt

**Thorsten B.** · 10-15-2014, 01:14 PM

Still no clear evidence for your claim.

**Jo Rivett** · 10-16-2014, 08:28 AM

I realize the importance of discussion, but really.. Ground Dug and Poland, together in the same sentence?

Die meisten haben das Lernen nicht gelernt

**Jo Rivett** · 10-18-2014, 04:25 AM

Mathew, sorry to have another public "go at you" but needs must. I have read and re-read this thread and am just in awe! - Been slapped stupid i have!
You are always quick off the mark to slap any mention of "forensics" down, as you have done here 3 times now. Going so far as to not only question forensics, but to declare it useless. The major problem here, is that NONE of your posts about forensics are EVER accompanied by any MSC or single microscope images yourself. You a re quick to spit bile on a subject you have no idea of, never provided any of your own research on, and in reality (clear by your posts) have a very narrow understanding of.

These "marked" images you are providing.. how can anyone seriously look at images 2 x 2 cms, and reach any conclusion?

Forget the "looking for micro patina" under extreme magnification as that is clearly over your head. A solid understanding of the correct interpretation and understanding of what we see under magnification is first needed before you toss your counter-opinions around concerning forensics.
In fact, i will go so far as to say, Until you start showing us some of your own forensic research, some of your own detailed magnified images taken under a microscope, and the conclusions you have reached (or what you have found) you have no right whatsoever to question forensics, or even have any opinion on it.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Now, why has another thread just been started at the MFF forum? Simply because the few people who have shown the few badges here, all disagree with each other. Naturally an owner of an expensive badge/award will "want" it to be real, in many case actually need it to be real because of the financial layout. Naturally these are the people who can shed more light on the awards and clear up any confusion/questions.. but they are not here, all that is happening is the same old s××t... opinions, what people think they see, what they claim to know, and not more.

Forensics, as was suggested by Gaston in post 90, is the ONLY way you are going to clean this mess up. one detailed MSC image, taken from the same place on these badges, not a small 2 cm x 2 cm marked image that makes sense only to the original poster, will instantly, and irrefutably tell you the following, and it will leave no room for opinion, no room for he-said she-said, no room for "well it could be.." no room for anything other than facts:

If the item was stamped or cast
If the item was stamped by a die created with the correct tooling for that period
If the many awards were all stamped by the same die, or if dies were mixed or if many dies were used.
If a master was used to create more than one of the dies used for these (Background patterns will differ even if the identical master was used so it is a definite possibility)
And much much more....

Imagine one large MSC image of this portion.....

from each award on this thread. Even if you have absolutely no idea about forensics or period tooling or the production process, you would still see - instantly - which one is genuine - or not. You would have, with nice large MSC images, the naked truth about the item staring you in the face.

The major problem here is that this is exactly what collectors are afraid of, and DONT WANT TO SEE. They would rather scoff at forensics, form opinions based on 2 x 2 cms images and discuss anything and everything EXCEPT THE ACTUAL ITEM.
The only way you can clear this up - if that is the aim - is to use forensics. The MSC below was compiled for a different purpose, but imagine if we had images of this quality, taken from the same place on each of these awards/badges?

The only way i could link two badges to the same maker, even though they were made 20 years apart, was because of a MSC image i took of the 3mm big silver stamp. Without these, a 3mm size stamp could be discussed forever with many opinions on if it was, could be, or is, the same stamp used 20 years ago. But as you see, a clear MSC image tells us straight away that the tool used to stamp both is identical, leaving no room for any opinion to the contrary!!

Have we not recently seen yet another horror thread, 6 figures dropped on a fake dagger, with the 2 CoAs for it costing $1000.- alone!! We see this all the time. It really is time to start taking a DETAILED look at our items, and not pussy-footing around the word F O R E N S I C S.
Although a very simple request - a detailed MSC image - it seems to be a tall order indeed for most

Awards worth thousands, yet a microscope for $100.- is just too much effort? Spending 5 minutes behind it taking a few images and uploading them is too much effort? Yes i know, forensics takes away your right to have an opinion in most cases, thats GOOD though, and in time, would help clear up this huge mess.

I will leave you with the following:
When a dealer shows an image of something for sale thats about the same size as a peanut, we all go crazy. "He must have something to hide" why the tiny images when a good digital camera costs under 100 today?
The same allies to MSC images. Why not show one? why cant you provide any? a good digital microscope costs the same price as a good camera today. It takes 5 minutes to make an image and less to host it. People own items worth thousands, and are content to form an opinion based on 2 x 2 cms images.... ??
It is these who deserve to pay $1000.- for a CoA and then loose tens of thousands!

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