Alter Kampfer - new found

[Matthew]

Una mas. This is probably the one you mentioned earlier being 'ground found'. I am sure the same background is just a coincidence and there are different badges or perhaps an honest mistake as to where it was found- you know- roof, ground- hard to keep track.

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

yeah, sounds legit

Silver is just one of the materials on offer. Zincers are also being found often.

Not bad for just over a year...

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

At some point those were also called Gau Danzig Badges. Well, still are I guess.
Those are getting hard to come across these days, but sometimes you get lucky.

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

I believe CA claimed his 925 Alter Kampfer came from the family of the recipient. Seeing you're in touch with the man- why not ask for details? Hopefully we can retrace the story and get some answers here? That should be an easy one to trace.

cheers

Matt

[gt1234]

Mall You still are useing dishonest tricks

Hi , Matt as ususlly You are dishonest , You showed Us something in Allegro , in quality which foreclouse any identification. How You can compare this little unredable pictures to any badges have shown there.
Look for this auction on allegro . Is it fake?

http://allegro.pl/plakieta-gau-danzig-i4672972638.html

By the way , that mini alter kampfer in by opinion could be na original, I think I know the owner, try to ask him for better pictures.

Best Regards
Grzegorz

[gt1234]

Pictures

Matt show us better pictures badges from Allegro , I'm 100% sure that You have tchem saved on Your hard disk.

Regards
Grzegorz

[jabnus]

Hi , Matt as ususlly You are dishonest

I've been following this (these two?) topic with very much interest and think it's a topic that was waiting for years to be made. After Gottliebs terrible book this topic so far at least finally opens up our eyes to these badges and finally brings forth a discussion that had to be made. With the far too many badges in all kinds of variations, popping up faster as certain sites can list them, its no more than logic that uneasy questions are being asked.

Mr gt1234, i don't know you, nor have any problems with you, but i do have a problem with the above quoted part. In my personal experience Matthew is one of the most knowledgeable and honest people i have ever got to know, who is also always ready to help out, and that is quite a rarity in this messed up hobby.

I look forward to a continued good discussion as the last thing regarding these badges has for sure not been said!

best regards,
Gaston

[Matthew]

Matt show us better pictures badges from Allegro , I'm 100% sure that You have tchem saved on Your hard disk.

Regards
Grzegorz

I think I have them somewhere. I'll look later.

What are the measurements of your '925' badge, please? (preferably with a digital caliper instead of carpenters tape).

cheers

Matt

[Rick C]

Have been following this thread with some interest. While we await the measurements requested by Matt I did a little cursory look around searching ‘Alter Kampfer’ and ‘Danzig badge’ and found only two threads mentioning size. One was Toby’s here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...g+measurements which measured 36mm x 44mm while the other was mine (formerly Chris’) posted here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...er#post1884872 wherein the dimensions are 44.01mm high by 36.28mm wide using a Starrett digital caliper. (Matt told me privately that mine is a fake due to the pin plate configuration that he equates to Souval even though I note a photo posted by Schönbeck here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=alter+kampfer which shows a similar, albiet dual pin plate. on the reverse. Photo below reposted from the aforementioned thread - hope no one minds.)

[Matthew]

Hi Rick,

Sorry about the confusion. Let me try and explain:
The photo as posted by you above shows two badges- one in silver (exact same as pictured by Niemann) and another by Paul Kust. So far ALL Kust badges found have been in tombak (one exception- Forster badge but that remains unconfirmed so take it out of equation for now).
They also differ in detail from Souval badge. Totally different badge but the quickest way to see that is to look at side ribbons. Kust will have them wrapped like this \ / while Souval has them displayed // as pictured below.
Souval used the same shape plate on MOST of his badges which also makes it a quick reference point. They used those on their fake Gau Ost Preussen badges as well in the same shape.
The badge Schonbeck shows in the other thread is of course a fake as he correctly points out but it is not a Souval fake (my guess would be a relatively primitive casting judging by the chunks missing from the design). There are more than a handful sources that have and still are offering those so it is getting hard to pinpoint the exact maker. Not that it matters as they are fakes after all.

Paul Kust original badge should measure in the neighborhood of 35 x 43 mm.

Hope that helps clarify thing a bit.

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

Here is a verso of Souval marked Ost Preussen in zinc. Note same pin plate as their Danzig counterparts.
Those too have been reproduced based on Souval design with different attachment plates (skinnier rectangulars, round, etc.).

I forgot to add- good fakes of Kust design Gau Danzig badges have been made in Russia recently. Wonderfully executed casts, like the rest lacking a bit in size (luckily). Clever thing about those is they are thinner so the weight comes up really closely to the originals.
Guess if you don't want to create a brand new design from scratch you have to live with smaller original. Whatever their mantra- it sure worked in at least one case although I have a feeling they sold it to a wrong guy.

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

I should add that there is a very real possibility someone out there made a fake out of Souval fake (wouldn't be first) simply based on lack of knowledge of the model being of postwar Souval pedigree. Again not that it matters unless you collect post war Souvals I guess but just saying...
It is also my contention that NO genuine Gau Badges were ever produced in 'fine zinc' so if you're looking to even stand a real chance of maybe having an original, that material might be a tough sell in the future as I am not the only one with that belief.
BTW- Souval reproduced ALL Gau Badges post war. Their biggest seller is by far the 'golden' version of Gau Essen pin. Supposedly only four produced, you can probably find more at any SOS. Not very popular to mention that either. Their Gau Wartheland sells quickly too and is known to be included in at least one 'documented grouping' by now.

cheers

Matt

[Rick C]

Matt,

Bear with me as I'm a bit slow, you and others are of the opinion that there were no zinc badges in this series. I'm wondering if this is the majority opinion these days and, perhaps others could come in on this question.

What, if I may ask (anyone) is the correct size of these badges (since we've yet to hear back on your question)?

Looking forward to hearing more on this subject. Rick

[Bob Hritz]

I do not believe that anyone was presented a zinc badge. Matt and I have discussed known originals with good provenance, and find these to be made of noble metals. I do not exclude the possibility that firms such as Rudolf Souval may have made replacement copies, but I do not believe any would be marked with their LDO number, which was for government contracts or approved private sales. These Gau badges were not national awards until later when they were granted official national status. They were awards awarded by the gaus and the certificates were gau awards. What Matt made clear is that the Gauleiters were giving something to those old fighters who were now important men of the Reich, even if they were no longer active since the struggle was successfully concluded. They were not going to be given a decoration that cost a few pfennig and were the equivelent of a glorified tinnie. That is why I believe any tinnie-like gau pin is nothing more than a tinnie. The gau badges were quality items given to important people.

Bob Hritz

[Richard]

Bob, when you refer to noble metals, do you mean silver or does it include the better grade of non-precious metals such as tombak? The reason I ask is that some of the Gau badges, such as the Gau Baden, were not of precious metal composition. Also, not sure I found it in this thread, what was the date of institution of the Gau Danzig badge and has anyone found any copies of regulations which authorized the badge? I also find it interesting mention is made of a glorified tinnie. I know tinnies which are identical in design exist of the Gau Essen and a very similar, though not identical, design tinnie exists of the Gau Thüringen badge. Is there any provenance or evidence to show a tinnie version of the Gau Danzig badge exists?
Richard V