AH flatware

[Br. James]

A fine piece in superb condition -- Congrats! And it won't be your last, either!

Enjoy the holiday,

Br. James

[colin mcilroy]

AH formal Champagne bucket Bruckmann

Hi looking to have a discussion about the attached AH Champagne bucket. General information attained suggests that it is part of the Bruckmann commissioned 1939 50th birthday set (3000 pieces) by A. Speer.

[Berghof]

Hello Colin,

Thanks for posting these pictures. Unfortunately, these style pieces are fantasy pieces and probably were made by the same people who made the napkin rings. The ice bucket is a plated silver piece but is designated as 80% solid silver and has an inappropriate placement of the greek pattern. These have been appearing at some specific auction house lately.

Here is a thread where I briefly brought up similarly designed pieces.

https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...=917681&page=2

I know there are others that subscribe to this thread and can share their expertise/opinions on your example as well.

Mike

[colin mcilroy]

im not convinced and would like a bit more to satisfy that its not an original piece. It has come from a reputable collector and well known authority on ww2 german items.
Can you be more specific?

[Jon Fish]

im not convinced and would like a bit more to satisfy that its not an original piece. It has come from a reputable collector and well known authority on ww2 german items.
Can you be more specific?

Dear Colin, it would be interesting to know your source for the bucket, I will say that often the so called 'well known authorities' are not what/who you might think, or simply their area of expertise lies elsewhere and it is a genuine error in opinion. It happens to us all. This is not my area of expertise but Mike especially, and some of the other guys who commented on the other thread he has directed you to, are. I would take their council and benefit from their knowledge. Unless of course your 'well known authority' is able to come on here and give a balanced opinion on its originality. Will be an interesting debate for us to learn from.

[Berghof]

I'm away from home right now and don't have my resources available, but here's an authentic AH ice bucket with champagne bottle insert. Notice no greek pattern, the way it should be. This particular bucket sold at Hermann Historica auctions a few years ago and can be referenced in thier archives. The bucket was manufactured by Wellner, is silver plated and has a roll stamped party eagle.

With respect to your bucket, I can visibly see that it is some sort of silver plate but is incorrectly classified as 80% solid silver. That in itself is the smoking gun that it is a fantasy piece. If you still doubt, bring it to a jeweler and the will concur with my silver plate assessment.

BRCN7T.jpg

BRCNA3.jpg

BRCNAB.jpg

[Berghof]

Colin, Here is a good reference site for the proper manufacturer hallmarks and plating designations for antique silverware. The forgers used the proper hallmark for Bruckmann silverware, but as I said it is not 80% silver. It is silver plated. You can look up the proper designations for plated silver.

https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks.html

[Berghof]

And another good link

http://www.silvercollection.it/WORLD...MANNSOHNE.html

[Br. James]

Hi Mike,

You've offered a fine overview of the Bruckmann firm!

Cheers, my friend, and do stay safe,

Br. James

[Willie J M]

Whilst l am not an expert , l would not want this piece in my collection , doesn’t confirm to known pattern

[colin mcilroy]

Colin, Here is a good reference site for the proper manufacturer hallmarks and plating designations for antique silverware. The forgers used the proper hallmark for Bruckmann silverware, but as I said it is not 80% silver. It is silver plated. You can look up the proper designations for plated silver.

https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks.html

OK so there are 2 views I have on this item one is its legitimate and the other from this site claiming that its a fantasy item.

So lets find a common ground in this debate. I am going to have the item evaluated by a reputable silversmith and if the item is .800 silver and not plated as stated then are we going to agree that this is a genuine item?? or is there some other evidence I need to be aware of in the claim this item is a forgery.
Could it be the only item in existence and thus a new relic of immense value!!!

[Berghof]

Unfortunately Colin, there isn't a common ground on this example. It's a known fake. There is no existing documentation available showing that pattern. I wish some other AH silverware experts would join the discussion, perhaps they are on holiday (CPB, Brent). Even if it was found to be solid silver, which I don't believe it is, it's still a fantasy item. I would suggest getting a refund from the auction house.

[Sonnyt]

I am new to the group and have been looking through the posts. I have a question in regards to the informal pattern and this may have been asked before and sorry if it has but are there any other known locations where the Informal pattern has been found other than Munich ?

[Brent Smith]

Known fakes of AH trays and various other piece

It’s a known fact that Charlie Snyder was involved in some way with many AH fantasy made fake pieces. He sold them promoted them at shows and died with many . They all showed up at the same time fantasy AH Napkin Rings By the hundred started showing up at the same time as the rest of these piece with hand applied uneven not roll stamped or perfect Greek key pattern design around a crude eagle and AH was was often push out from the metal the object was made of. No question many items might be period made piece with these post war fantasy alterations to try to turn it into a official AH item. Items with these creek key pattern added in a box or rectangle with the eagle and AH are all fake in my eyes. Brent.

[colin mcilroy]

Hi looking for opinions on the attached AH formal pattern items.. do they look legitimate??