AH flatware

[kamikaz]

German list for teehaus and eagle's nest

[Berghof]

translated list


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[Br. James]

Many thanks for translating the silverware order placed by Roderick Fick with
F.H. Wani Gold and Silversmiths of Munich, intended for the Kehlsteinhaus, Mike -- very helpful indeed. As we know, it is not stated on this packing slip whether the silverware described there is of the Formal or Informal Pattern...or of both patterns...but one may assume that since no difference is enumerated on this document, all of the silverware was probably of the same pattern. And since at least some of the pieces on this list were only known to exist in the Formal Pattern, that is likely what the whole order was comprised of.

This silverware order was dated in July of 1938 -- nine months prior to Hitler's 50th birthday, which the Kehlsteinhaus was intended to commemorate -- it is apparent that this set of silverware was ordered to provide for the building not yet completed.

And though Hitler's teahouse on the Mooslahnerkopf -- also designed by Prof. Fick -- was built the year prior to this silverware order being received, there is no reason to believe that some of the pieces included in this order were also used at that location.

Very helpful, Mike!

Br. James

[Berghof]

And though Hitler's teahouse on the Mooslahnerkopf -- also designed by Prof. Fick -- was built the year prior to this silverware order being received, there is no reason to believe that some of the pieces included in this order were also used at that location.

You're welcome James. I translated this a few years back to the best of my ability.

I agree that this order is not for the tea house at Mooslahnerkopf Hill. I'm assuming the invoice meant the tea house within the Eagles Nest?



.

[Br. James]

Yes, that's the way I have always read this shipping invoice -- bill of lading? -- that the goods from 'F.H. Wani' -- Franz and Hermann, the Wandinger Brothers, the high-end Munich retail jewelers through which Martin Bormann ordered Hitler's personalized silverware, produced by the Bruckmann firm -- were intended for and delivered to the Kehlsteinhaus. (Given it's precarious location, the Kehlsteinhaus was given the name of "The Eagle's Nest" by American soldiers; it was not known by that name by the Germans.)

Cheers, my friend, and thanks again for providing this English translation.

Br. James

[JohnD]

Is there a case for discounting any silverware porported to be from the Chancellery given the Russians captured it and more likely looted everything?

[Br. James]

"Is there a case for discounting any silverware porported to be from the Chancellery given the Russians captured it and more likely looted everything?"

On a certain level, John, most war memorabilia survives as the result of looting and theft, though those who looted would say that "To the victor goes the spoils!" When the Germans invaded Belgium and France in both WWI and WWII, I'm sure they felt that it was their "right" to take whatever they wanted from the towns and villages they captured and occupied, as well as from the Belgian, French and British soldiers who surrendered to them or who were killed in combat. When the Russians invaded Poland and Germany, I'm sure they felt a sense of "righteousness" in making the German soldiers and the German civilians who were brought to the Eastern Territories for relocation pay for the property they 'stole' from the original owners. And when the Allies stormed ashore in France and Italy, they also acted as though they had earned the right to take anything they wanted from the captured enemy soldiers, the enemy dead who lay on the battlefields, and the townspeople who lived in the German cities and villages...after all, those people supported the hated Nazis and Fascists who started the war! And today, thanks to all of this "righteous confiscation," our hobby thrives today!

That said, very few artifacts can be traced back to the real origin of their passing into collectors' hands, and without knowledge of that moment of origin, who can tell what circumstances led to the individual artifact coming into circulation in a private collection? With all of the years of collecting I've seen, other than some of the Golden Party Badges I've had researched as to original holders, none of the original owners/recipients of those articles have been known to me. And if you don't know who something originally belonged to, how do you determine under what circumstances that article became available for sale by a dealer? And even if a piece came with a name attached to it, who's to say whether the original owner or an inheriting family member chose to sell that item many decades ago?

So, in the end, I think it is better not to get involved with the question of whether it was a Soviet soldier who found a piece of AH silverware in the ruins of the New Reichschancellery, whether a British soldier traded cigarettes for that piece of AH silverware with that Soviet soldier, or whether an American soldier came upon a dagger or a PL uniform or a piece of AH silverware when on guard duty at the Führerbau or on the Obersalzberg.

Br. James

[JohnD]

"Is there a case for discounting any silverware porported to be from the Chancellery given the Russians captured it and more likely looted everything?"

On a certain level, John, most war memorabilia survives as the result of looting and theft, though those who looted would say that "To the victor goes the spoils!" When the Germans invaded Belgium and France in both WWI and WWII, I'm sure they felt that it was their "right" to take whatever they wanted from the towns and villages they captured and occupied, as well as from the Belgian, French and British soldiers who surrendered to them or who were killed in combat. When the Russians invaded Poland and Germany, I'm sure they felt a sense of "righteousness" in making the German soldiers and the German civilians who were brought to the Eastern Territories for relocation pay for the property they 'stole' from the original owners. And when the Allies stormed ashore in France and Italy, they also acted as though they had earned the right to take anything they wanted from the captured enemy soldiers, the enemy dead who lay on the battlefields, and the townspeople who lived in the German cities and villages...after all, those people supported the hated Nazis and Fascists who started the war! And today, thanks to all of this "righteous confiscation," our hobby thrives today!

That said, very few artifacts can be traced back to the real origin of their passing into collectors' hands, and without knowledge of that moment of origin, who can tell what circumstances led to the individual artifact coming into circulation in a private collection? With all of the years of collecting I've seen, other than some of the Golden Party Badges I've had researched as to original holders, none of the original owners/recipients of those articles have been known to me. And if you don't know who something originally belonged to, how do you determine under what circumstances that article became available for sale by a dealer? And even if a piece came with a name attached to it, who's to say whether the original owner or an inheriting family member chose to sell that item many decades ago?

So, in the end, I think it is better not to get involved with the question of whether it was a Soviet soldier who found a piece of AH silverware in the ruins of the New Reichschancellery, whether a British soldier traded cigarettes for that piece of AH silverware with that Soviet soldier, or whether an American soldier came upon a dagger or a PL uniform or a piece of AH silverware when on guard duty at the Führerbau or on the Obersalzberg.

Br. James

Hi. James,

Agree. I have no issue with the ‘victor the spoils’ concept whatsoever.

Interaction between thousands of Russian and Allied troops during the occupation would certainly have included trade with Chancellery items - this fact escaped me.

With the passing of time ‘first hand’ provenance is all but impossible. We simply have to trace back the story as far as possible and make our own decisions based on the findings.

Best.

[Br. James]

I certainly agree, John. When you consider how many shops and stores were within the various Occupation Zones, including the various 'RZM Stores' as well as the businesses which made and/or sold cutlery and dishware, it is impossible to know how may items were looted -- "liberated" -- from such locations, and with many of the medals and badges that came back home with returning soldiers -- American, English, Russian, etc. -- many arrived back home with concocted tales of how that soldier came upon having that medal -- all whimsical! Few soldiers told their families that they won that Luger in a card game or they took that Iron Cross off of a dead soldier they found laying in a ditch beside the road...for understandable reason.

I have also heard that the military hierarchy -- at least the US military hierarchy -- made some effort to dissuade front-line soldiers from looting shops and private homes, but those efforts had limited effect. I've spoken with more than one GI who described how he spent much of his time going through 'abandoned' houses, looking for anything of value, and when he found fine china or silverware or other valuables, he would take them back to "rear train' and store them in his locker. When the locker was full, he boxed his holdings up and had them shipped back to his family in the USA. One GI I spoke to still hadn't gotten over the time he returned to his locker, only to find that someone had broken into it and 'stolen all of his accumulated goods!' He was still furious about that, even decades later! The nerve of another GI stealing his stolen goods!!

Another GI told me of his days on the transport ship coming back home after the war. Apparently a great amount of time was spent bartering with other soldiers for German helmets, pistols and medals, and using those pieces in the poker games that went on continuously. One guy told me that he lost all of his gathered war souvenirs in those card games -- things that had taken him months to accumulate during his time at the front, were lost in a few days of gambling on board ship! And a man who was the co-owner of a business I worked for in the 1970s/80s told me that he won so much money over the five days he spent on the transport ship coming back home after the war that he was able to buy his way into becoming a partner in that business in the early 1950s.

The world is what it is... Cheers,

Br. James

[Brent Smith]

Adolf Hitler Eagles Nest China ??

I came across a offering that I am not sure what to pay in todays market or if it stands on its owns without written documentation . I have a chance to buy these pieces. They look like a few I handles many many years ago that were documented coming from the eagles nest. I have a chance to buy 6 small saucers and one larger bowl . All marked the same and the time period fits .

[Berghof]

I came across a offering that I am not sure what to pay in todays market or if it stands on its owns without written documentation . I have a chance to buy these pieces. They look like a few I handles many many years ago that were documented coming from the eagles nest. I have a chance to buy 6 small saucers and one larger bowl . All marked the same and the time period fits .

Hey Brent...hope all is well. It's one of those things, if you don't know, I wouldn't know. Do you have pictures?...that may help.

[Brent Smith]

See pictures. Of this possible Eagles nest China.

See pictures.

[Berghof]

Wittmann had a small plate that sold. He was asking $795

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/41310.htm



1.JPG

2.JPG

3.JPG

[CPB]

Brent, pieces from this set are freely available on the market, and without written documentation or a solid story are worth only a fraction of Hitler-attributed pieces.

Which is too bad, as there must be a bunch of real ones out there.

[a.h.]

Hello,
I’m happy new items my collection , AH Machbox holder.

which matchbox were inside?

Thanks for help.


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