A couple of Cultural items

[Naval Enigma]

Steve this is very on the money as far as I can tell. The "SS Religion" -- Deutschgläubig? -- was still being researched and developed, it was not formalized, dogma was evolving and it was not evangelizing the masses yet. I like your "ran out of time" remark.

Yes, there is a danger that it is easy to sensationalize this area, and we have all seen the occult exploitation books. We should keep these discussions grounded in the known knows and that there is no evidence of sensationalistic dark practices.

Himmler and his pagan braintrust were working toward defining a "new religion." The Ahnenerbe was scouring the Earth for Aryan artifacts while the the Willigut types were busily scrying in the hopes that this religion would reveal itself through the metaphysical aether.

I can imagine the core intent was to gestate the belief system and ritual/celebratory aspects within an inner elite of the SS. Had Germany won the war -- I believe Hitler would have been deified like Ceaser -- He and Speer were turning Berlin into a "holy temple city" for him.

Some new "epic poem" would have been written, a new "Edda" or "Gilgamesh" -- that plus Mein Kampf, and the developing ritual cycles created by Weitzel and Himmler would have coalesced into the new State Religion.

I am deep in the land of "what if" at this point. It is certain the men creating this new religious movement were fighting existing culture and tradition. Just imaging a young SS officer sitting across from the dour and bewildered father of his bride as he explains that he wants an SS ceremony and not a church wedding. I'm sure that never went over well.

And thank you everyone for the fantastic artifacts appearing on this thread!

Its always good to stop and question beliefs and its good that people like the 'Kaiser' come in put the brakes on. Its all healthy debate and adds to the interest of this area of collecting, so thanks to Wilhelm, Thorsten and Michael for this recent burst of activity!

A newcomer to this subject and thread may be forgiven in thinking there was an 'SS Religion' in place from all the writings in here but we should stay grounded, it was a 'potential' belief system, but was it successful? Himmler was surely working hard at putting it all together on paper and re-inventing history, rebuilding pojects to fit his beliefs, Summer Solistice festival events, and so on and so forth but it was a slow process that ran out of time.

The 'SS Religion' so to speak was not mature and not on only that, it was not successfully implemented within the rank and file SS. A fascinating area but in reality the majority of SS remained Christian while Himmler continued with his romanticised neo-pagan writings and wanderings, pseudo-archaeology and so on.

Himmler could not even enforce the marriage rules which men had sworn to obey, SS men disregarded them and continued with their Christian traditions. Early on Himmler would have them expelled as per the SS-Hauptamt Order,July 1935, 307 were expelled in 1935. Clearly the disregard of marriage orders continued and even before war, a further SS-Hauptamt order in June 1937 stated disregard does not necessarily mean expulsion but the couple would have to still meet SS racial regulations. In November 1940 Himmler issued another instruction to say that all men expelled for disregard of the marriage order should be re-accepted into the SS, provided they themselves were racially satisfactory. (see H. Hohne The Order of the Deaths Head)

The majority of the Allgemeine SS were Christian too, at two-thirds. Even in the Waffen SS the Germanic Volunteer contingent were allowed to go to Church.

Its true there are very few real SS cultural items. Also it seems that the most of the SS were not fully into believing in the so called 'SS Religion' (?)

[Thorsten B.]

Yes,

it was all in development but with already quite some rituals - if not everything important - already in practice.

First indded for the inner believers and promoters - like a Namensgebung of one of Karl Wolff´s sons clearly shows in beginning of 1937:

The man practizing this ceremony in the house of Wolff was Wiliguth (Weisthor) and named him Thorisman by surrounding his hands with a blue band of stuff representing youthness as well as purity.

Of highest importance were the SS-members attending this religious SS-ceremony:

The Wolff family, Karl Maria Wiliguth, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Eugen Tristan Heydrich and not to forget Karl Diebitsch.

The ones who know the historical background of these figures may get a feeling of what was already going on in this really inner circle represented by them.

From being born to live and die - everything was already put in the books shortly after and the SS-Family book was just one of them since each SS-Standarte or at least SS-Oberabschnitt were encouraged to continue these rituals and including different regional traditions - and objects representing an own appropriate lifestyle and taste of art.

[Michael Fay]

Steve this is very on the money as far as I can tell. The "SS Religion" -- Deutschgläubig? -- was still being researched and developed, it was not formalized, dogma was evolving and it was not evangelizing the masses yet. I like your "ran out of time" remark.

Yes, there is a danger that it is easy to sensationalize this area, and we have all seen the occult exploitation books. We should keep these discussions grounded in the known knows and that there is no evidence of sensationalistic dark practices.

Himmler and his pagan braintrust were working toward defining a "new religion." The Ahnenerbe was scouring the Earth for Aryan artifacts while the the Willigut types were busily scrying in the hopes that this religion would reveal itself through the metaphysical aether.

I can imagine the core intent was to gestate the belief system and ritual/celebratory aspects within an inner elite of the SS. Had Germany won the war -- I believe Hitler would have been deified like Ceaser -- He and Speer were turning Berlin into a "holy temple city" for him.

Some new "epic poem" would have been written, a new "Edda" or "Gilgamesh" -- that plus Mein Kampf, and the developing ritual cycles created by Weitzel and Himmler would have coalesced into the new State Religion.

I am deep in the land of "what if" at this point. It is certain the men creating this new religious movement were fighting existing culture and tradition. Just imaging a young SS officer sitting across from the dour and bewildered father of his bride as he explains that he wants an SS ceremony and not a church wedding. I'm sure that never went over well.

And thank you everyone for the fantastic artifacts appearing on this thread!

They did not need a new poem, more like, a reinterpretation, of the Eddas, and medieval ideas , outright fantastical ideas and aryan Christian ideas and especially the Vedic Sanskrit texts as put forth by Dr.Wust.
One other part of the equation is there were non SS also calling themselves the same thing as the SS did.
Some of these groups predate SS formation and NSDAP takeover.

[Thorsten B.]

After being born in the SS-Family...

...and moving on in the personal development by joining the Jungvolk and then HJ until being fourteen that is done.

From that year on the young son started to be responsible for the further development by joining other units like the RAD, the Wehrmacht or Allgemeine SS.

Therefore the Geburtstagsring of the Deutsches Heimatwerk had place for 14 candles - here being placed on the SS Jul chest.



Interesting to note in detail now the carved vine grapes as cultural decoration around and within the four fields in the front of the chest.

[Michael Fay]

Yes,

it was all in development but with already quite some rituals - if not everything important - already in practice.

First indded for the inner believers and promoters - like a Namensgebung of one of Karl Wolff´s sons clearly shows in beginning of 1937:

The man practizing this ceremony in the house of Wolff was Wiliguth (Weisthor) and named him Thorisman by surrounding his hands with a blue band of stuff representing youthness as well as purity.

Of highest importance were the SS-members attending this religious SS-ceremony:

The Wolff family, Karl Maria Wiliguth, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Eugen Tristan Heydrich and not to forget Karl Diebitsch.

The ones who know the historical background of these figures may get a feeling of what was already going on in this really inner circle represented by them.

From being born to live and die - everything was already put in the books shortly after and the SS-Family book was just one of them since each SS-Standarte or at least SS-Oberabschnitt were encouraged to continue these rituals and including different regional traditions - and objects representing an own appropriate lifestyle and taste of art.

Predating them all and where Himmler owes the most to is Hermann Wirth who reinterpted the discredited Ura Linda Chronik as evidence of ancient scandinavians coming from an Northern Atlantis Ur-Aryan civilization with a matriarchical society of seeresses who worshipped Jul on the Winter solstice called jul and made Jul leuchters which Wirth was selling copies in the 1920's to anyone who would buy one.
Wirth's ideas were promulgated far and wide before NSDAP takeover, and influenced many groups ideas on history and the new religions.
So the core of the SS elite version of the new nazi religion(s) was known to all, and it was the writings of Herman Wirth...who in turn had been influenced by the Runic revival scholars and quacks/mystics, like Guido von List, etc.

[Thorsten B.]

Wirth was - in the early period of development - an important figure.

Nonetheless he was one among others - the SS sorted that out among each other until about 1937, depending on other inner and outer developments in politics, structure, economics and Himmler´s never-ending hunger for influence, power, manpower, professionalism and efficiency.

To make it short: no place anymore for scientists/dreamers being deemed to be unacceptable, especially in public and outside of the Reich.

[Michael Fay]

Predating them all and where Himmler owes the most to is Hermann Wirth who reinterpted the discredited Ura Linda Chronik as evidence of ancient scandinavians coming from an Northern Atlantis Ur-Aryan civilization with a matriarchical society of seeresses who worshipped Jul on the Winter solstice called jul and made Jul leuchters which Wirth was selling copies in the 1920's to anyone who would buy one.
Wirth's ideas were promulgated far and wide before NSDAP takeover, and influenced many groups ideas on history and the new religions.
So the core of the SS elite version of the new nazi religion(s) was known to all, and it was the writings of Herman Wirth...who in turn had been influenced by the Runic revival scholars and quacks/mystics, like Guido von List, etc.

Forgot to post another of my "pagan mystical booklets' that I dare to study...

Note the design on the spine of Wirth's book. the smaller booklets are commentaries on Wirth's writings. He was highly influential and highly discredited by academia at the same time.
That and his matriarchy ideas eventually led to Himmler removing him from head of the Ahnenerbe and replacing him with Sanskit scholar Dr. Wust.

[Thorsten B.]

From that time on Himmler was the only practical dreamer - still not in public but very efficient!

[Michael Fay]

Wirth was - in the early period of development - an important figure.

Nonetheless he was one among others - the SS sorted that out among each other until about 1937, depending on other inner and outer developments in politics, structure, economics and Himmler´s never-ending hunger for influence, power, manpower, professionalism and efficiency.

To make it short: no place anymore for scientists/dreamers being deemed to be unacceptable, especially in public and outside of the Reich.

Himmler's core belief system was the divinity Wirth described. Even after Wirth had been removed, for various reasons, even that he was bad with SS funds...
Still till the bitter end in the 1940's the themes first posited by Wirth were still being persued by the Ahnenerbe.
Nazi influenced civilian Academics were working with Wolfram Sievers in Ahnenerbe sponsored projects to make further castings of the rock carvings Wirth had used to describe his visions of the past Ur Heimat of the Aryans.

[Thorsten B.]

Himmler was a human being.

Like every human being he had goals, dreams, visions and the problem of compromising in regards to the difference of what he thought and telling someone else what he thought.

Apart from that I think only Himmler was able to define what his core belief system was - if at all.

[Naval Enigma]

Gentlemen,

Thank you! I am humbled by scholarship on display here. Priceless!



A link to some relevant texts, including one titles "Die Jahresring"

http://www.od43.com/Ahnenerbe_SS.html


Also, here's a link to the book Mr. Fay has been so kind to share, looks to be abridged:

http://www.archive.org/details/Wirth...-Linda-Chronik

[Michael Fay]

Himmler was a human being.

Like every human being he had goals, dreams, visions and the problem of compromising in regards to the difference of what he thought and telling someone else what he thought.

Apart from that I think only Himmler was able to define what his core belief system was - if at all.

As such, I base my assertions on Himmler's own documented words. From such a source, I am comfortable knowing that Wirth's ideas were ever present in Himmler's psyche...and for the final point: Himmler did not retire the Julleuchter when he retired Wirth from his post.
And there you have it...the julleuchter is one of the keys to Himmlers ideas.

But, the julleuchter was not a complete secret to non SS, and Wirth had been selling his own reproductions prior to Himmler's adoption of the design.
All his main writings were for sale to the general public before the Nazi era and during. When his books were published by the Ahnenerbe press, they were accesible to the public.
Wirth was an influential figure for many of the new religious variations as well as Himmler.

[Thorsten B.]

"Wirth's ideas were ever present in Himmler's psyche...and for the final point: Himmler did not retire the Julleuchter when he retired Wirth from his post."

Let´s define a bit different:

by reading Himmler´s written words in historical sources we know what he wrote - but we surely just cannot know what was really in his mind, that is just impossible.

So yes, the Julleuchter - as I also already said much earlier within this thread - is one of the keys to Himmler´s ideas.

So what about the Jul chest then?

[Thorsten B.]

OK - I need some sleep now, maybe that´s the only possible way to get in contact with Himmler´s psyche

Meanwhile maybe somebody else can support this great thread with more input of some more thoughts and cultural goodies - so that I wake up with a nice surprise

Anybody feels doing me good that way?!

Stay tuned and let´s talk and enjoy tomorrow again,

Cheers!

[Michael Fay]

"Wirth's ideas were ever present in Himmler's psyche...and for the final point: Himmler did not retire the Julleuchter when he retired Wirth from his post."

Let´s define a bit different:

by reading Himmler´s written words in historical sources we know what he wrote - but we surely just cannot know what was really in his mind, that is just impossible.

So yes, the Julleuchter - as I also already said much earlier within this thread - is one of the keys to Himmler´s ideas.

So what about the Jul chest then?

spoken words are the tranference of ideas.
the Julleuchter (as given to Himmler from Wirth) is the key. Meaning the key is Wirth's ideas. The julleuchter is Wirth's.Himmler simply takes it from him.

And Julleuchters were controlled by SS (after Wirth had already sold his own) .
Chest making was not controlled by the SS....- are you still trying to claim that "howler" ?