A couple of Cultural items

[Thorsten B.]

And the back...

...bearing the Binderune (intertwined runes) of the maker.

[Thorsten B.]

A DHW booklet...

...depicts similar plates as pottery for the festive table in the germanic household.

The difference regarding these plates is that the ones on the table usually do not bear any decoration in the center - that was especially the case for their use as wall plates like the shown example with the white horse.

The white horse is also a well-known pagan symbol of the last westphalian duke fighting against christianity - Widukind.

[Steve T]

...bearing the Binderune (intertwined runes) of the maker.

Looks like an 'L' with a figure dancing What runes do you see?

[Thorsten B.]

I see an artist´s signature (monogramm) in runic letters - just as it was modern in the period, you know?

If I look at it from your perspective I do not see a dancing figure but some kind of a cripple - I think that was not modern in the period.

By the way: were your shown DHW examples marked in any way?

[Steve T]

I see an artist´s signature (monogramm) in runic letters - just as it was modern in the period, you know?

If I look at it from your perspective I do not see a dancing figure but some kind of a cripple - I think that was not modern in the period.

By the way: were your shown DHW examples marked in any way?

I know the maker of your plate, I just can't remember it! I researched it when I saw that plate for sale. I've noted it somewhere I think though.

The two pieces I have are not marked but the design can be identified in period DHW material and apart from that I only know the region at the moment. I think I've only shown one DHW ceramic piece. That plate arrived and then some weeks later the lady was still going through boxes from her Grandma and found me the second one.

[Thorsten B.]

Yes,

one can buy a book like regarding Keramikmarken and research it, for sure.

But that´s boring - everybody can do that.

And if I would only collect what I can identify in period material - whether for example DHW or Allach - I would have missed my best bargains anyway.

When i bought a whole household full with DHW furniture there were about four pieces that are not listed in any of their booklets - and, what does that really mean?

The Luftwaffe officer who ordered these pieces in 1942 from the DHW shop in Munich got every single piece from the DHW and that was for me another evidence that just about 60% of their production range is indeed known or can be identified by their booklets.

These unknown pieces give me the thrill of the hunt, anything else is easy since it´s plain to see.

[Steve T]

Yes,

one can buy a book like regarding Keramikmarken and research it, for sure.

But that´s boring - everybody can do that.

And if I would only collect what I can identify in period material - whether for example DHW or Allach - I would have missed my best bargains anyway.

When i bought a whole household full with DHW furniture there were about four pieces that are not listed in any of their booklets - and, what does that really mean?

The Luftwaffe officer who ordered these pieces in 1942 from the DHW shop in Munich got every single piece from the DHW and that was for me another evidence that just about 60% of their production range is indeed known or can be identified by their booklets.

These unknown pieces give me the thrill of the hunt, anything else is easy since it´s plain to see.

I wasn't talking about anything apart from that plate of yours and the two pieces I bought.

What does it mean? I can only speak with respect to my pieces. Knowing the patterns/styles exist in the booklets and period pictures mean a lot me because without that documentation it would be pure guess work and speculation when it comes to identifying the pieces.

You might think seeing a product in a period catalogue and then finding such a piece is easy, and yes, it probably is but for me its better than having an item I don't know has any relationship whatsoever to my collecting interests.

Take the plate you show as an example, I would find the maker, cross reference it with the supplier lists of the DHW and also try to identify the pattern in period DHW material. If it turns out to be from a DHW supplier and its visible in DHW documentation then its fair enough to describe it as a DHW item as one has supporting information to say it is. If its from a maker known to supply DHW without any further reference found in DHW material then its an item from a supplier that supplied DHW, not necessarily anything sold by DHW. If there is no reference in the DHW documentation then I don't think its correct say it is a DHW plate because it is only speculative.

Yes, I guess I can agree with you that ceramics are easy, at least when compared to wood plates, tapestries and such like where there is even less documentation and more speculation.

OK fair enough, I was only going to try to be helpful and find the maker for you but obviously it doesn't matter to you so I'll shut up and just continue on being boring!

[maestro]

...awesome plate!

Thorsten, is that brightness of flash on the plate.. the close up of the horse if somewhat grainy.. is that the picture? how's the quality of the picture in normal light? plate

[Thorsten B.]

Darius,

The surface of the plate is a tiny bit grainy due to the material but in normal daylight it looks just fine - the flash does not really reflect the beautiness of the piece but that´s also me and my skills of taking pics

Hey Steve,

no need for such a reaction - I think I just do not absolutely collect in a way like you do - that´s all.

Best example is that DHW tapestry you bought from me:

When I saw the piece I bought it because I had a good feeling regarding it´s outward appearance. Then about a month later by coincidence I found that early DHW booklet and by looking closer into it - Boom! - I found the identical pattern in it.

If I would have collected just by the book I would have missed this one for sure - that´s all I am saying

[Steve T]

Thorsten,

Don't take my comment as some kind of negative reaction. I have often been told I can be a little blunt in my writing! Yes, people do collect differently and we may collect differently and, also sometimes similarly too I would think when there is less at stake.

What modulates the level of speculation to some degree, at least for me, is what is paid for the item. Sure we can all speculate and pay a few euros for an item that we have no proof of a connection to say the DHW and speculate using ones experience and intuition but until the item is perhaps later proven to be related it is still a speculative purchase. On the other hand if a purchase is made at a price where one really needs to know if an item is exactly what its being sold as, ie an item 'in the style the product sold by the DHW' versus 'an item with a pattern documented in period DHW articles' then I may speculate on the former if it is say 'x' euros but then if the price is ten times 'x' euros then I would like some additional information above a suggestion and opinion.

You mention the tapestry, and with respect to the above, at a much lower price I would do the same as you and very likely buy, but, at the price I paid there is significantly less speculation and more a need for some evidence to justify the outlay.

Also back to ceramics and using your plate as an example, I could easily speculate at the prices these items can sell for but until it is shown to be a product of the DHW it is still and item that a person may believe is DHW but is really 'in the style of the DHW'.

Also with respect to my own two pieces they could well be DHW, very likely so. I can see the pattern painted on the plate shown in this thread pictured in two DHW documents that I'm aware of in both cases the pattern is depicted on a jug, not a plate so a judgement has to be made on whether the style of the painting matches. I know the style of the painting matches and I know the type of product is of the region, the clay is of the region and the DHW documents state this region also. That maybe all I realistically can expect to find out. This may be enough information to call it a DHW piece, I don't know for sure how it should be described.

Similarly the tapestry I bought from you is not exactly the piece in the document you show but the pattern of the weave is as far as one can tell from the image, the same pattern. Although the tapestry is not exactly similar in size, format or colour the pattern is the same and is the only tapestry I know of that that has exactly the same pattern as one depicted in a DHW document. I like that, it is piece of information that no other tapestry in this jacquard beiderwand style has.

Yes indeed I can agree with you that speculation can bring rewards and there is no 'textbook' on cultural items, this also is part of the fun, new areas to learn about. I'm also sure we agree this is a fascination area of collecting albeit when compared to the general military hobby it is little understood. Also perceived value of these items varies considerably, which is natural in a little understood market. This is surely borne out but the asking versus sale prices of items in this area that can be seen in our own E-Stand here, I myself have offered a plate for example at one price but it only sold at half that price where as others have sold immediately at my asking price. With cultural items this unsettled view on values may always be the case as personal taste I would guess plays a significant part. Your yourself are experiencing this right now on the e-stand, with your perceived value being sometimes significantly over what an an item will sell for and other times you will sell immediately.

Ok I'm wavering off topic a little and probably becoming boring so i'll shut up again

Darius,

The surface of the plate is a tiny bit grainy due to the material but in normal daylight it looks just fine - the flash does not really reflect the beautiness of the piece but that´s also me and my skills of taking pics

Hey Steve,

no need for such a reaction - I think I just do not absolutely collect in a way like you do - that´s all.

Best example is that DHW tapestry you bought from me:

When I saw the piece I bought it because I had a good feeling regarding it´s outward appearance. Then about a month later by coincidence I found that early DHW booklet and by looking closer into it - Boom! - I found the identical pattern in it.

If I would have collected just by the book I would have missed this one for sure - that´s all I am saying

[Thorsten B.]

"Similarly the tapestry I bought from you is not exactly the piece in the document you show but the pattern of the weave is as far as one can tell from the image, the same pattern. Although the tapestry is not exactly similar in size, format or colour the pattern is the same and is the only tapestry I know of that that has exactly the same pattern as one depicted in a DHW document. I like that, it is piece of information that no other tapestry in this jacquard beiderwand style has."


That is the part to which we obviously agree to disagree because indirectly - and a bit cautious - you state with your statement that my offered tapestry is not a DHW piece.


And therefore I will jump on that train to sort this out right from the beginning:

My tapestry I offer right now on the E-stand is exactly the same pattern as one depicted in a DHW document as well.

The DHW stuff depicting several different pattern was produced on machines which were already old in the TR period.

The looms were routed with punch cards - the stuff coming out of these looms was cut goods.

So it was due to the potential orderer/client and the changing ideas of size and use how long and at which part of the pattern the cut and so these individual tapestries were finally manufactured.

So once again: the tapestry I offer on E-stand has EXACTLY THE SAME PATTERN as depicted in the DHW documents and therefore IS a DHW tapestry.


Show me just ONE part of the pattern that is NOT identical

[Steve T]

Hi Thorsten,

Regarding my paragraph below:

"Similarly the tapestry I bought from you is not exactly the piece in the document you show but the pattern of the weave is as far as one can tell from the image, the same pattern. Although the tapestry is not exactly similar in size, format or colour the pattern is the same and is the only tapestry I know of that that has exactly the same pattern as one depicted in a DHW document. I like that, it is piece of information that no other tapestry in this jacquard beiderwand style has."

This is not alluding to your tapestry offered. What it says is I very much like the extra piece of information that confirms the patterns in my tapestry are exactly similar to the depicted piece in your catalog. It does not state the tapestry you offer is in my opinion either, a DHW piece or is not a DHW piece. It does not state as you suggest that your piece is not DHW.

Yes, I completely agree on the production methods on the Jacquard loom with punched cards and that they were in production most probably from around 1915 when these techniques were being introduced and developed in Germany. I think the beiderwand reverse images was a technique particular to Germany, a development of the Jacquard technique. Documented images of the patterns in German museums certainly state the patterns were in use at least back to 1920. The production method can reasonably be deduced to be the same from images depicted in the small blue DHW booklet where the weave pattern can be seen.

Please allow me to have my own opinion as I respect yours and so my own thoughts are I think that although is is not absolutely DHW but it is very likely the one you offer is a DHW piece, the materials and construction being what is expected and yes of course the tapestry can depict any part of the full pattern. The only difference being the recent purchase from you of the ochre/brown piece is it has that little bit extra information which naturally increases ones confidence level with the pattern being exactly similar and documented whereas the larger wall hangings are very similar, not exactly similar. There is actually a little difference in the pattern upon close inspection.

Now moving on to the actual difference please see the picture below where I have marked the specific detail differences in red. From these differences we know the punched card that defined the pattern of the DHW pictured catalog piece did not produce the one you offer.

So, yes I believe the patterns are similar, not exactly similar but I'm not arguing with you about originality, so really you should not be concerned about my views on these pieces. You know I'm very interested in the subject and I like to learn and know as much as I can, hence studying the detail very closely.

"Similarly the tapestry I bought from you is not exactly the piece in the document you show but the pattern of the weave is as far as one can tell from the image, the same pattern. Although the tapestry is not exactly similar in size, format or colour the pattern is the same and is the only tapestry I know of that that has exactly the same pattern as one depicted in a DHW document. I like that, it is piece of information that no other tapestry in this jacquard beiderwand style has."


That is the part to which we obviously agree to disagree because indirectly - and a bit cautious - you state with your statement that my offered tapestry is not a DHW piece.


And therefore I will jump on that train to sort this out right from the beginning:

My tapestry I offer right now on the E-stand is exactly the same pattern as one depicted in a DHW document as well.

The DHW stuff depicting several different pattern was produced on machines which were already old in the TR period.

The looms were routed with punch cards - the stuff coming out of these looms was cut goods.

So it was due to the potential orderer/client and the changing ideas of size and use how long and at which part of the pattern the cut and so these individual tapestries were finally manufactured.

So once again: the tapestry I offer on E-stand has EXACTLY THE SAME PATTERN as depicted in the DHW documents and therefore IS a DHW tapestry.


Show me just ONE part of the pattern that is NOT identical

[Thorsten B.]

Wow, Steve:

Mission accomplished - and so?


Should I show you now how many details they changed over the years regarding their top-of-the-line furniture piece, the big closet with wrought iron fittings/hinges in tree of life ornamentation?


Just keep in mind that at least four - if not more - different weaving mills were in contract with the DHW for producing these tapestries and each one - just like the cabinetmaker´s workshops regarding the closets as one another example - did it in different variations of one and the same pattern.

[Steve T]

Wow, Steve:

Mission accomplished - and so?


Should I show you now how many details they changed over the years regarding their top-of-the-line furniture piece, the big closet with wrought iron fittings/hinges in tree of life ornamentation?


Just keep in mind that at least four - if not more - different weaving mills were in contract with the DHW for producing these tapestries and each one - just like the cabinetmaker´s workshops regarding the closets as one another example - did it in different variations of one and the same pattern.

Yes, of course do tell us more about DHW, I read all posts here with enthusiasm. Designs do change and evolve, that is normal, expected and information supporting such changes would surely be welcomed here.

Indeed I'm sure there were many producers of tapestries and I'm certainly open to there being variations of patterns. This is not a point I have any argument about. I've only said that it is nice to have things documented and knowing a pattern was sold by DHW can only be a plus point above having something similar with a degree of probability of being sold by DHW.

[Thorsten B.]

Steve,

I already offered copies of more important DHW documents to you - that is more than many individuals are willing to share anyway.

So what´s your point?