3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[BobI]

Obermeyer,
Well, without reading this entire thread I do remember Bob Hritz made a positive statement regarding Mr. Bollinger’s award as well as other well respected people.
I think you took my statement as an attack, not at all. For all of your accusations that are damaging and against known and respected previous knowledge. If you want people to believe your views, you really need more then words, you need concrete proof or evidence to support your claims. You could very well be right since this award is rare and not well understood at this time. However, as I mentioned earlier all you have at this point are unsubstantiated opinions, no more.
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Mikedenmark]

I have read through this thread with great interest. Even though the discussions on "facts" and "experts" is of less interest to me. Sorry, I do not hold that sabre rattling.


I wonder about several details:

1: Why do anyone believe the orders on the pillows at funerals are the ones actually worn by the recipient?
At a state funeral, it would be so much easier to get a supplier to furnish the pillows complete to order. This would ensure the originals didn´t get lost and that they wouldn´t drop during the ceremony.

2: Has anyone checked at the Bundesarchiv whether the original pillow photos might be there. Without newspaper rasters?

3: Same goes for photos of the recipients. Bundesarchive may have something.

4: Anyone tried to straighten the pillow photos, and measure out the orders, to compare sizes?

5: I have seen almost nothing about the width of the white ring around the swastika in the middle. There was something about party pins, but that was it.

6: How many extras could a recipient buy? You receive one, and if you need any extras, you buy them yourself. Like when you have two set of parade uniforms at different places, you need to be able to change either place without having to rush order boxes across Europa.

7: Museum specimens? Were such items made of this decoration? Did they differ from the awarded type?

8: How many dies does a company usually make? 1, or 2, or more ? I would say one, if I only expect very few to be made. But if my die breaks during use, I have to make another.


I am no expert on decorations, and I have lost faith in my expertise in other areas of collecting, if it was ever there.
This is why I wonder somewhat, when I read this thread.
I, for one, would not want to buy any of these decorations, even if I had the money.

To do that, I would need the possibility of comparing with a verified original. One known not to have been around anywhere. And I doubt one exist, except maybe in a russian museum?
Or maybe, factory photos would do.

If one believe he has an original, all that matters is whether others are willing to believe it as well.
And that is only because he may sell it some day.

I have had the opportunity to see a few rare decorations coming to light over the last many years, and my experience is:

If they are original, you are simply not in doubt. I feel like they scream at me: See, THIS is how I look.

Whenever you start arguing, either with yourself or with others, chances are, they are no good.

My lost faith comes from the repeated experience of having been presented with known copies, that do exactly that.

So, if you like it, buy it.
But don´t go into originality... it leads nowhere.

Mike

[Chris Obermeyer]

BobI and Mikedenmark,
Bob I did not take your comments as an attack. I am sorry if it looks that way. However I do not agree with you when you lable some members as experts on this subject as they are not.

It is written in well known books several true features, therefore facts, about the German Order. For example, the books tell us that German Orders were made in silver, so ANY example of a German Order constructed in whatever metal is nothing but a FAKE! That could be understood as a LAW. However some “experts” insist in saying otherwise without any evidence or prove whatsoever, why?

Those books also inform us that all the lettering on the cross were constructed in GOLD and never in silver. That could very well be a second law. So, again, all crosses with lettering in silver are FAKES! And again and again the same “experts” insist in saying the opposite without any prove, why?

As Mikedenmark pointed out, there´s no clear wartime picture with quality enough to establish how did the German Order really looked like. I agree with him when he said about those funeral pillows, quite possible, but still, those pictures, Todt and Heydrich´s funeral pillows cannot tell much, but only the fact that Todt´s decoration is clearly different from that of Heydrich´s for the reason I wrote in one of my previous post.

Since it is a known fact that Souval bought, and may not paid Deumer, for some dies, it is logical to conclude that Souval post war version for the German Order is the closest you can get from a wartime original, made in silver gilt, gold lettering and original ribbon made by Karl Loy. Sometimes those crosses may show original ribbons of the Blood Order instead of the proper German Order ribbon. Some people say that prototypes from Deumer were made with Blood Order ribbons and never replaced since they used those crosses as a reference at the factory.That´s a fact for the most obvious reason. I have to stop writing about this at this point, but I know a lot more. However, I am going to give you something to think. What really was the complete package Deumer sold to Souval?

Answering Mike´s question number 6, I say that it was impossible for an extra decoration paid by the recipient as most of them were given when they were dead. Also I do not believe in museum copies, at least not in that stage of the war.
Lastly as a collector I do not believe in buying because I liked it. I am a searcher for the truth, I have to know the truth that I am not afraid of.
Chris Obermeyer.

[Thomas Bendixen]

As I see it how do we know that the references to crosses being made only in giltet silver and with gilt membership badge, as Chris Obermeyers claims, is correct! The KC of the EK should also only be made with iron core right

Do we know for sure that only a limited amount were made during the war? Were these not displayed in the uniforms/medal shops and museums, propaganda exhibitions around Germany? Would the Präsidialkanzlei order one at a time? Or 50 pieces? I think at least 50 to start with but thats just guessing.

If its correct that you can't firegilt silver, this could very well explain why we see this "highest" award being made of bronze instead of silver like the eagle order, because they do look much better firegilded than gilded. I think Göring was the exception to the rule when it comes to "good" taste in metals and diamonds, in the TR nomenclature (sorry Chris but I don't hold the recipients of the German Order in as high esteem as you do). Didn't Göring himself complain that the highest military order EK brilliants to the oaks were made with unreal stones?

If Chris Obermeyer says that the original should look, designwise, more like Souvals with its IMO sick looking chikens and plain gold finnish it would really turn everything I have learnt of TR aesthetics the last 25 years upside down, but I'm not there yet - far from.

I'm impressed with the gentleman way Obermeyer has been treated here when he enters here with a lot of arrogance and very little to back it up with.

Cheers Thomas Bendixen

[BobI]

Hi Again!
Firstly, since I am well educated in the sciences I really need research or evidence from your end presented in such a way for me to go against the current tide. Although I am educated in the sciences I have collected for over 30 years. There are people I know with no agenda that have bought pieces such as the Hunlein dagger from vets with a logical story that can be verified to some degree. In certain cases I give this info that has been repeated by trustworthy people over the years bearings on my opinion as well. I am a student of militaria and I think you really need to post photographs of the pieces that are shaping your opinions.
Thomas Bendixen in someone who has certainly proven to be a very capable researcher and I greatly value his opinion. I am sure Thomas is also open to your opinions but again, we need more then unsubstantiated words to reinforce your points.
Again, not that the “source” of a piece is 100% proof of originality but I do know where this award originated from. That in combination to the physical characteristics of this piece definitely let me have faith in its originality.
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Chris Obermeyer]

As I see it how do we know that the references to crosses being made only in giltet silver and with gilt membership badge, as Chris Obermeyers claims, is correct! The KC of the EK should also only be made with iron core right

Do we know for sure that only a limited amount were made during the war? Were these not displayed in the uniforms/medal shops and museums, propaganda exhibitions around Germany? Would the Präsidialkanzlei order one at a time? Or 50 pieces? I think at least 50 to start with but thats just guessing.

If its correct that you can't firegilt silver, this could very well explain why we see this "highest" award being made of bronze instead of silver like the eagle order, because they do look much better firegilded than gilded. I think Göring was the exception to the rule when it comes to "good" taste in metals and diamonds, in the TR nomenclature (sorry Chris but I don't hold the recipients of the German Order in as high esteem as you do). Didn't Göring himself complain that the highest military order EK brilliants to the oaks were made with unreal stones?

If Chris Obermeyer says that the original should look, designwise, more like Souvals with its IMO sick looking chikens and plain gold finnish it would really turn everything I have learnt of TR aesthetics the last 25 years upside down, but I'm not there yet - far from.

I'm impressed with the gentleman way Obermeyer has been treated here when he enters here with a lot of arrogance and very little to back it up with.

Cheers Thomas Bendixen

Dear Sir,

"As I see it how do we know that the references to crosses being made only in giltet silver and with gilt membership badge, as Chris Obermeyers claims, is correct! The KC of the EK should also only be made with iron core right"
-Political decorations are one thing of a very distinct nature , military decorations however are a completely different subject and I do have serious doubts that RKs of EK were made with a non magnetic core.

"Do we know for sure that only a limited amount were made during the war? Were these not displayed in the uniforms/medal shops and museums, propaganda exhibitions around Germany? Would the Präsidialkanzlei order one at a time? Or 50 pieces? I think at least 50 to start with but thats just guessing."
-They were order one at a time wich does not mean that the factory had some other examples for their own reference. May I remind you that "guessing" is not scientific and a true mine field.

"If its correct that you can't firegilt silver, this could very well explain why we see this "highest" award being made of bronze instead of silver like the eagle order, because they do look much better firegilded than gilded. I think Göring was the exception to the rule when it comes to "good" taste in metals and diamonds, in the TR nomenclature (sorry Chris but I don't hold the recipients of the German Order in as high esteem as you do). Didn't Göring himself complain that the highest military order EK brilliants to the oaks were made with unreal stones?"
-With the exception of the last class (Medal of Merit, 1943 version) of the Eagle Order, ALL Eagle Orders were made in high grade silver gilt, just like the originals of the German Order. Eagle Orders made in bronze are fakes made by, probably, the same amateurs making German Orders as I have seen several at e-medals. Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, different from you, IMHO, had an impacable taste on everything and that is a historical fact. For your information the only sets of RK with diamonds not made with original stones are those called dress copy. Those given by the State are real diamonds. If you don´t know if it is possible or not firegild silver why don´t you research like I did?

"If Chris Obermeyer says that the original should look, designwise, more like Souvals with its IMO sick looking chikens and plain gold finnish it would really turn everything I have learnt of TR aesthetics the last 25 years upside down, but I'm not there yet - far from."
-You are right, you know less than nothing about German Orders or TR esthetics. By the way, can you explain to me, like I am a 6 years old kid, why that ugly design to the swasticas on those cheaping made bronze crosses? It looks like that the swasticas are not even there.

"I'm impressed with the gentleman way Obermeyer has been treated here when he enters here with a lot of arrogance and very little to back it up with."
-And I am impressed with your cynical, untrue comment. When you say "arrogance" I believe you mean a kind of knowledge, showed by me, far superior, as a new breed of an EXPERT/INVESTIGATOR and a true COLLECTOR! Tell me something, am I that danger to the "establishment”? What makes you think you are right? I challange YOU to prove I am wrong! At least, please show us your theory, that if you have one.

Chris Obermeyer.

[Chris Obermeyer]

Hi Again!
Firstly, since I am well educated in the sciences I really need research or evidence from your end presented in such a way for me to go against the current tide. Although I am educated in the sciences I have collected for over 30 years. There are people I know with no agenda that have bought pieces such as the Hunlein dagger from vets with a logical story that can be verified to some degree. In certain cases I give this info that has been repeated by trustworthy people over the years bearings on my opinion as well. I am a student of militaria and I think you really need to post photographs of the pieces that are shaping your opinions.
Thomas Bendixen in someone who has certainly proven to be a very capable researcher and I greatly value his opinion. I am sure Thomas is also open to your opinions but again, we need more then unsubstantiated words to reinforce your points.
Again, not that the “source” of a piece is 100% proof of originality but I do know where this award originated from. That in combination to the physical characteristics of this piece definitely let me have faith in its originality.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Dear BobI,

I am sorry I cannot agree with you when you say my arguments are "unsubstantiated". The base for my theory are informations on well known PUBLISHED reference books and a very long private investigation. Like many members here, you are the one going against the stream without any prove or even a clear theory.
I meant what I said and I feel I have nothing else to add although, like I said many times, I know a LOT MORE! I just don´t want to say it.
Best Regards,
Chris Obermeyer.

[NBolinger]

pictures

here are some more pictures again, the eagles on the silver suval and the eagles on a deumer made badge.I think the burnished swazs on the deumer made medal are great, the suval eagle on the rght looks like his eye is on top of his head. Chris do the eagles on your friends crosses look like chickens?

[NBolinger]

todt pillow

since we dont have many pictures to go buy , i see a deumer made german order in this picture, pluse the swaz in the center of the medal is floting not touching the arms.

[stonemint]

I am surprised no one piped in to help Myky on his:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=565172

[Craig Gottlieb]

I just got this group out of the woodwork - came in today's mail. I will post close-ups of the German Order when time permits. There was a lot more, but this is the picture with the German Order, 3rd Class. Richer mount is mine, of course (these medals were stored in a coffee can since the end of the war). So, how about that wound badge!

[Ron Weinand]

Craig, This looks like a Deumer Board hoard where the veteran removed them and threw the cardboard Deumer board away. The short or missing ribbons give you the clue and I have seen two Deumer Boards with the German Order 3rd Class on them. Great score!!

[Craig Gottlieb]

Yep. There are a lot of medals NOT part of the board that came in with the group, but with the Todt badge, and the short ribbons: you broke the code, Ron. I'm sure there was at least one "Deumer Board" involved. Spanish cross is a Deumer, L/11. Also sorry - I just tried to enlarge the German Order for you to see, and this is my wife's computer and my I-phone, and I screwed it up. More photos when I get to work on Monday.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Okay, trying to use Iphoto to edit, and not having much luck. I will try on Monday, and take proper pictures.

[Napalm]

Craig, buy a camera, 12 mgs in Walmart for about 50 bucks...:-) Steve Jobs left you with a stinker, as my mates ould man says, If you want to buy meat, go to a butches, if you want a newspaper, go to a newagent, if you need vegetables, go to a market...Same as buying Militaria, If I want an Apple I go to the apple shop, If i need a , you get the drift...:-)