not long ago, I missed these ones....and those are original!
martin
martin
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but the seller thought it was more interesting to sell the ones to Weitze....
https://www.weitze.net/detail/85/Deu...e__164485.htmlComment
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Hello Bolinger,Originally posted by NBolinger View PostChris i thank you for your comments and you may well be right. Im not a expert on these medals and its very possible i made a mistake, its happened many times before. I think the quality of the medal is very nice and matches exactly to known originals, party pin enamel everything. From what i read the partypin is a exact match to the small fuess party pins and they are supposed to have the lines under he leaves. i can guarantee its been in a trailer park for at least 35 years so its not something new. The medal looks much better in hand the detail of the heads is very nice and sharp but didnt come out to well in the pictures. Thanks for the detailed response and maybe we can all learn something today.
Thank you for your comments.
Please understand that I am NOT saying your story regarding to the cross is not true. It´s the other way around really!
You see, quality reproductions of the German Order started by Rudolf Souval early in 1960`s, almost 50 years ago. So, your story makes pefect sense to me.
Aparently, Rudolf Souval himself bought all equipments belonging to the original producer, Wilhelm Deumer, for making the German Order. About 25 years ago this very same equipment was sold to a german forger from east-Berlin. However all this cannot be proved although the "gossip" goes even further and some say that Souval never payed Deumer for the dies.
It is not known how many decorations were made during this time, but I don´t believe on a high number. They were produced in solid silver and sometimes differently marked with L/58, L/21 and 935. That was a beautiful job.
Regards,
C. ObermeyerComment
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Would this mean all the ones pictured in refrence books are fakes? In post 31 in this thred There is a silver S&L Made cross are these the ones your refering to?Last edited by NBolinger; 10-06-2011, 04:27 PM.Comment
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IF these are real then Nbolingers is real also, there is no difference. The pictures of it in sunlight say everything Thats as real as real gets Nbolinger. The known pictures in the reference books would have to be all fake also because they are a dead ringer for this one.Originally posted by mdj View Postnot long ago, I missed these ones....and those are original!
martin
Sometime you cannot see the forest for all the trees. If you want to find fault you will always find it.
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So your saying out of all the reference books out there all the pictures of the german orders are fake? So all these big name dealers who have been around for 40 or 50 years and have had there stuff published are wrong and or lying? I think you should spend some time reading threw some of the old threds on the medal and see what some Experts think about this type of cross. Compare to pictures of TEXTBOOK examples posted in past threds .My medal makes the Suval Copys made in silver look like dog crap! Like the one posted in post 30 with the box, the eagles on that medal look like there starving and smoking crack.
Last edited by NBolinger; 10-06-2011, 11:50 PM.Comment
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In response to your statements i would like to add a little info myself.
Point One, You say that ALL the German Orders with Fire Gilt finish are fake?
This is a not true and all known originals have this finish, it maybe 24k gold mixed with the mercury to make the great finish that we are used to seeing in the reference books. Not 24 K gold plate.
Point Two You state that the center disk should not have the striations or lines under the wreath on the GPB, not true, there has NEVER been a original example pictured like the one you describe, ALL the known originals are made with the small fuess party disk with the striations under the leaves. The cross that you describe sounds alot like a early suval cross, read past threads on the medal by WC Stump and WARLORD who has been expelled.
Point 3 You say that the lettering on the party pin is supposed to be gold not silver.Wrong again Every known example has the silver lettering some say and i quote " The composition of the first class changed during its time from the first examples being made in TOMBACK to being produced in silver? .One possible explanation for the lettering appearing gold on the early examples is that the tombak could have absorbed the silver"? WARLORD 1/29/2003 #139. Why has a silver 1st or 2nd class never shown up? Other than early silver fakes made by suval.
Point 4 There is NO solid proof that the medal had to be made out of gold or silver and no examples have ever shown up, only fakes from the 60s made by suval and there are major differences between a deumer made cross and suval crosses.
Point 5 You stated that Deumer sold their dyes to suval after the war. The original dyes for the medal were given to the Ludenscheild Museum along with The one Runstrern star that was made, and a set of cased Orders.
Point 6 You state that the enamel is poorly done. That is not true the enamel is of the highest quality and again matches up with the known originals.I have owned some of the biggest and best imperial german neck orders, some ive posted on the forum and the enamel is just as good if not better, believe it or not ive owned and handled some very very rare items in my 20+ years of collecting and dealing and there are several members on this forum that can confirm this.
Point 7 You state that the medal looks like it was made by a total amateur? That statement is just crazy!Sorry but it is.
Point 8 In your email to me you said that you have only seen one real one and your friend is an authority of the matter and he has 4 originals, including a Runstern star for the special class and you have seen these with your own eyes.Which is it have you seen 1 original or 4?
I would bet that your friend who has 4 original examples including Heydrichs cross, LOL in silver, most likely has 4 1960s fakes made by Suval.And the runstar is most likely a Suval fake too. There was a fake Suval in silver on ioffer.com last week for 10.000 of best offer, and it looked like CRAP compared to a Deumer made cross.
With all this being said, i think you should post your secret pictures of the originals in silver on the forum and disprove every big name dealer in the business who's had their medals published, with their names next to the picture.
Best Regards, thumbs up.
Nole BolingerLast edited by NBolinger; 10-07-2011, 06:23 PM.Comment
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more medal pics
here are pictures of the medal in the sunlightComment
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Very funny!
The fire gilt technic cannot be used in decorations made in silver, ONLY in bronze. It is accepted that ALL German Orders for the most obvious reasons are made in solid silver, period! This information has been written in many books (please READ), therefore ALL German Orders made in whatever metal, with the exception of the prototype Special Class, are nothing but FAKES. The content of the gold used for gold wash, in ALL high end decorations during the Third Reich made in silver was 24k. It´s the only way to gold plate a decoration in silver, for example, Eagle Orders.
The fact you have seen German Orders with different look in some book DOES NOT mean they are authentic. In several Angolia´s books blatant fakes were used to ilustrate those books. On Dodkins and Littlejohn´s book they used sketches and fakes. So far, I have not seen a real one in any book, and as a matter of fact I have never, EVER, seeing an original wartime picture with quality enough to establish a definitive design of how the original cross really DID LOOK LIKE.
The German Order was awarded for only 11 times, and some people like myself, believe that no more than 20 were made. They were made one by one, so little differences in design are expected. For example the combined Luftwaffe Pilot/Observer badge with diamonds.
What is regarding to the lettering they must be made in gold. The fact that all others are made in silver does not mean they are originals. The fact is that “all others” you have seen are not constructed in silver like yours, and like yours ALL OTHERS (thousends of them around) with similar construction are FAKES!
Indeed Souval version had differences from Deumer of course. However, the closest you can get from an original is to have a Souval copy because the dies used were the originals. I strongly belive that someone may have one of those medals, believed to be made by Souval when in fact they are originals and the owner doesn´t even suspect! I agree that one set of the original dies remain at the factory, however, do you really think that Deumer had but just one set of dies? That´s silly to say the least!
If you want to insist that the quality of the enamel work on your decoration is the same quality of enamels found in German decorations from the period like Eagle Orders, Social Welfare Order, Red Cross Order, Rechskultursenate and so many others, I can only say that you have never seen one of those or you are may be blind.
The friend and collector I told you about have one German Order First Class with Swords, one Third Class and the Special Group prototype decorations, complete set. The prove he has is a series of pictures he took in Germany with Lina Heydrich, before she died, on his side with the decoration. Is that good enough for you?
Again my opinion stands as a FACT, and lastly, anyone making fakes of the German Order using bronze is an AMATEUR!
C. ObermeyerComment
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