"Mahnmal" monument centerpiece

[Military]

I would agree that Hitler would have thought about proper storage of the Blood Flag in the final months of the war. Only a handful of people I guess will ever know its existence.

Mil

Mil,
Thanks for posting the Ulric reference, I will look for it.
James, I enjoyed your different ideas, they set me to thinking about it again,it’s a question we have all asked ourselves, I am sure. I just hope the blood flag wasn’t disposed of. It’s a priceless piece of history. Any museum curator who says he/she wouldn’t have it in their museum is a liar.
It’s like the Crown Jewels of the Holy Roman Empire, the Americans found those, And they were well hidden and protected. In the 52 Schmiedegasse Allee secret bunker originally, then hidden elsewhere- but found.

The Blood Flag, on a whole other level, must have been protected, a holy relic of the Third Reich. If the Americans found it, they would probably publicize its destruction - had they destroyed it, but obviously they didn’t.
At the time, there was a very real fear of plans for a Fourth Reich.
I imagine the final scene from the Raiders of the Lost Ark- someone wheels a wooden crate, with generic army Numbers stenciled on it, into a huge warehouse Full of crates, to be stored forever.

However, I would bet it exists to this day. Just like all those SS rings that were buried in the mountains - (the Harz mountains, was it?) They exist somewhere.

I wonder, who has a good picture of the size and shape and look of the blood flag?
Here’s a very unhelpful picture of its details, but a good picture of how important it was.

[oldflagswanted]

Reminds me of ...

... the Blood Flag ... Only a handful of people
I guess will ever know its existence.
Mil

... my favorite lines from "Triumph Of The Will", the 1934
RPT Nuremberg film.
........OFW

[squidney86]

My belief, and this is purely my imagination here, is that the Butfahne's whereabouts are known. Or were known. I think if anyone were to have ended up with it, it would have been Grimminger. He makes the most sense. I know all of his property was confiscated post war but I'm sure he had things hidden around Munich. I don't know of his family situation or if he even had any but my bet would be it's still within them, hidden away.

Sydney

[Jon Fish]

A theory that I have no evidence to back up in this particular case, but I’ve thought for a while based on other cases that I have known it occurred, is that Grimminger remains the custodian of the flag. I know as a fact that very important artefacts have remained with their bearers once they have passed and this could be a possibility.

[Br. James]

Mil's reference was to the footnote on p.191 of "Deutschland Erwache" by Ulric of England, published by Bender Publishing in 1997, which states: "The author has been told by a German contact that Grimminger had, in fact, hidden the "Blood Flag" before the end of the war, and sold it before his death to a wealthy German collector. None of this information has been confirmed, but remains an interesting possibility."

Jakob Grimminger was not the 'caretaker' of the Blood Flag; he was its flag-bearer at events deemed important enough to warrant the banner's presence. I believe the banner was stored, together with all of the other "historic banners of the NSDAP," in the Hall of Honor in the entrance hall of the Brown House in Munich. The Brown House was struck by an American bombing run in October of 1943 and effectively destroyed, but prior to that the contents of the Hall of Honor had been transferred to the tunnel system beneath the Brown House (which led to the Führerbau and the Party Administration Building) for protection. Photos of that underground storage area taken after war's end turn up every so often, and it appears that the contents there were ransacked ("liberated" by the Occupation Powers), but not destroyed by the bombing. Grimminger had to pick up the Blood Flag from the Brown House when he was assigned to carry it...and presumably he would have had to sign out for it...and he would have had to return it after each event. Since the Blood Flag was last seen at Gauleiter Adolf Wagner's funeral in April of 1944 -- six months after the Brown House had been destroyed -- the banner obviously survived that event.

Grimminger died in January of 1969, in apparent poverty. If he had sold the Blood Flag before his death, one wonders where the money went?

Always a most interesting subject!

Br. James

[Military]

Odessa?

[Br. James]

"Odessa?"

Hhhhmmmmm?? Interesting thought! Do we know that Grimminger was involved with with the post-war SS relocation efforts? If indeed Grimminger "was not sent to prison, but all of his property was confiscated" after the war, one wonders how he was able to live for the next 20+ years after the Nuremberg Trials...?

In addition to ceremonially bearing the Blood Flag publicly from the reorganization of the NSDAP, Jakob Grimminger was one of those rare Altekämpfers who proudly wore the Coburg Badge, the Blood Order and the GPB, so he would have had a certain 'stature' among the die-hard ex-Nazis after the war.

Hhhhmmmmmm?!

Br. James

[squidney86]

"Odessa?"

Hhhhmmmmm?? Interesting thought! Do we know that Grimminger was involved with with the post-war SS relocation efforts? If indeed Grimminger "was not sent to prison, but all of his property was confiscated" after the war, one wonders how he was able to live for the next 20+ years after the Nuremberg Trials...?

In addition to ceremonially bearing the Blood Flag publicly from the reorganization of the NSDAP, Jakob Grimminger was one of those rare Altekämpfers who proudly wore the Coburg Badge, the Blood Order and the GPB, so he would have had a certain 'stature' among the die-hard ex-Nazis after the war.

Hhhhmmmmmm?!

Br. James

I don't doubt he had some sort of financial help. He was too important to the "cause" not to have been. There is so much that none of us will ever know on the workings of things postwar with these veterans and former hierarchy of the Reich. Not only that, but items that have been long lost (believed to be at least) that reside is German collections.

In a previous post, you stated that Grimminger was just the carrier of the flag publicly but not it's caretaker. That I did know but for whatever reason, I still think if anyone would have ended up with it, it would have been him.

Sydney

[Br. James]

"In a previous post, you stated that Grimminger was just the carrier of the flag publicly but not it's caretaker. That I did know but for whatever reason, I still think if anyone would have ended up with it, it would have been him."

Hi Sydney,

It's certainly a possibility, my friend, but my point was that Grimminger did not take the Blood Flag home with him after it's public appearances, just as all of the DE banner-bearers did not store those important symbols in their garages or their basements, either. I assume that when Grimminger showed up at the Brown House with paperwork directing him to carry the Blood Flag at an up-coming event, that he would have had to sign out for it...the Germans being as fond of paper-trails as we know them to have been...and when he returned it, that would have been documented, as well. So Grimminger would have had to call for that banner at some point after he returned it following the Wagner funeral in April of 1944.

It is also of interest to note that that last view of the Blood Flag took place literally right above the location where it was being stored, since Wagner was buried in the lawn between the Temple of Honor next to the Führerbau and the remains of the bombed-out Brown House.

Cheers,

Br. James

[Koen P]

blood flag

The whereabouts of the bloodflag is indeed one of the big mysteries of the post third reich period. It's my opinion that it must still be out there somewhere. Lots of items related to the Nazi top were considered lost forever but showed up in the recent decades....If you read the book by the Dutch investigator, author and salvage hunter Arthur Brand an how he traced the Thorak horses from the reichskanzlei..statues that were also said to be scrapped and lost forever, then you realize that it is still very possible that other rare and special items are still out there and will surface some day. As written by Brand the daughter of Himmler, Gudrun, played a key role in former Nazi circles. This all sounds like a big conspiracy theory and a story aimed to sell copies of a book. But what if it was true that family members of top end Nazi's stil keep many secrets and try to safeguard some priceless Nazi memorabilia?

By the way I also wonder how it is possible that the second list of BO bearers has never been found? As we know that the BO was thé most important Nazi medal, why would there have only existed one copy of a list with numbers and names. We all know how good German en especially Nazi bureaucracy was. Why has the list with the first 1500 (and most important) names survived the war and the list from 1500-4000+ not? When US troops found the memberships cards from the Kartei in a paper mill, weren't there other documents from the Braunes Haus and NSDAP Munich office buildings? I also ask myself if this list will turn up one day in between dust covered papers from a US veteran?...

[ErichS]

The whereabouts of the bloodflag is indeed one of the big mysteries of the post third reich period. It's my opinion that it must still be out there somewhere. Lots of items related to the Nazi top were considered lost forever but showed up in the recent decades....If you read the book by the Dutch investigator, author and salvage hunter Arthur Brand an how he traced the Thorak horses from the reichskanzlei..statues that were also said to be scrapped and lost forever, then you realize that it is still very possible that other rare and special items are still out there and will surface some day. As written by Brand the daughter of Himmler, Gudrun, played a key role in former Nazi circles. This all sounds like a big conspiracy theory and a story aimed to sell copies of a book. But what if it was true that family members of top end Nazi's stil keep many secrets and try to safeguard some priceless Nazi memorabilia?

By the way I also wonder how it is possible that the second list of BO bearers has never been found? As we know that the BO was thé most important Nazi medal, why would there have only existed one copy of a list with numbers and names. We all know how good German en especially Nazi bureaucracy was. Why has the list with the first 1500 (and most important) names survived the war and the list from 1500-4000+ not? When US troops found the memberships cards from the Kartei in a paper mill, weren't there other documents from the Braunes Haus and NSDAP Munich office buildings? I also ask myself if this list will turn up one day in between dust covered papers from a US veteran?...

The names of the awardees of the 2nd pattern do exist but there are no correlating numbers to go with them.

[ErichS]

"Odessa?"

Hhhhmmmmm?? Interesting thought! Do we know that Grimminger was involved with with the post-war SS relocation efforts? If indeed Grimminger "was not sent to prison, but all of his property was confiscated" after the war, one wonders how he was able to live for the next 20+ years after the Nuremberg Trials...?

In addition to ceremonially bearing the Blood Flag publicly from the reorganization of the NSDAP, Jakob Grimminger was one of those rare Altekämpfers who proudly wore the Coburg Badge, the Blood Order and the GPB, so he would have had a certain 'stature' among the die-hard ex-Nazis after the war.

Hhhhmmmmmm?!

Br. James

I read that Grimminger received a small pension for being on the Munich City Council during the war.

[Br. James]

Hi Koen,

I agree with your thoughts about important artifacts turning up in our time. Once the first generation died -- those people who either hid artifacts in and around Germany or brought them back to their homes as war booty -- those artifacts came into the possession of their children and those who inherited from them. In our time those children are now beginning to die, and when those once-revered artifacts finally turn up in the hands of grandchildren and others who neither know or care about the history behind all of those pieces, that is when they begin to appear in auctions. So we are still in the game; all we need to do is live long enough for the good stuff to surface once again!

Cheers,

Br. James

[Br. James]

"I read that Grimminger received a small pension for being on the Munich City Council during the war."

Hi Erich,

Yes, I read that, too, but apparently his political career prior to 1945 precluded his political career post-1945:

"In the 1950s, he briefly attempted to enter Munich politics and served a term as a Munich city counselor. However, his status as a former SS-Colonel prevented him from continuing in politics and, by 1960, he had faded into obscurity. Jakob Grimminger died in poverty on January 28, 1969, at the age of 76."

While his life as an SS member was not offensive enough to warrant his incarceration as a Major War Criminal via the Nuremberg Trials, his face was unique and prominent enough from all of those films and news-reels before and during WWII that any chance of continuing in any sort of 'public life' in Germany was DOA. Apparently Grimminger's career as a Munich City Councilor was very short, and the pension from that service was probably minimum at best. The 1950s was not the optimum time for well-known ex-Nazis to begin new political careers in post-war Germany!

Cheers,

Br. James

[ErichS]

"I read that Grimminger received a small pension for being on the Munich City Council during the war."

Hi Erich,

Yes, I read that, too, but apparently his political career prior to 1945 precluded his political career post-1945:

"In the 1950s, he briefly attempted to enter Munich politics and served a term as a Munich city counselor. However, his status as a former SS-Colonel prevented him from continuing in politics and, by 1960, he had faded into obscurity. Jakob Grimminger died in poverty on January 28, 1969, at the age of 76."

While his life as an SS member was not offensive enough to warrant his incarceration as a Major War Criminal via the Nuremberg Trials, his face was unique and prominent enough from all of those films and news-reels before and during WWII that any chance of continuing in any sort of 'public life' in Germany was DOA. Apparently Grimminger's career as a Munich City Councilor was very short, and the pension from that service was probably minimum at best. The 1950s was not the optimum time for well-known ex-Nazis to begin new political careers in post-war Germany!

Cheers,

Br. James

Actually many ex Nazis were in administrative government jobs during the 50s due to their expertise running gov departments.
if they omitted these folks, there would have been very few with the knowhow to run the gov bureaucracy.