Deumer & Juncker Pilot badges

[J Temple-West]

I think you're right, Tim...

War demands a different mindset, in all things. The 'J2' shows the arrival of a new age..

[skip]

Hey Timbo,

looksch like you are into german schpelling or what?

I agree that the cutout on the Juncker is drilled and filed. I actually meant that the Deumer is from the stamp. look at Rich´s example. Theres no way a drill or a file did that hole. Its just to small.

Skip

[anguspm]

Hi guys,

I´m not going to go into the ins and outs of the metalic structures etc etc but suffice to say:

1, The marks are added after the eagle has cooled. (nowadays this is still the same and also doubles as a quality mark, ie the badge cannot have the company mark unless it meets the standards required. The assay office in the uk works in this same way).

2, It is perfectly possible to drill a small hole and use a "needle file" or "filing wire" to complete a cut out by hand. (a needle file is the same as a normal file but with a very thin cross section, usually no smaller than 2-3mm, smaller than 2-3mm is carried out using a filing wire, this grooved wire sits in the same device as a hacksaw blade and is similar in all purposes except for the coarseness).

Hope that helps?

The next bit is a little off topic but covers some construstion details/principles:

As an aside and in support of point (1) I´ll explain a test I carried out to determine when the maker mark was applied to the badge in this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=55630

The point of the exercise was to determine whether the maker mark had been applied war time or later. Not the easiest thing to determine but with a little knowledge of metalurgy, forensics and the use of some of the most advanced microscopes around you soon have the answer.....

1, Badge arrives
2, Off to Toulouse with work
3, By using a high power particle microscope it can be seen that the stress marks surrounding the Maker mark are fissures therefore determining the mark was applied after the badge had cooled. The fissures are surrounded by metal that has reverted to its original structure (metal is elastic in the same way as rubber only not so noticable) this indicates the mark was applied over 50 years ago (for this particular structure of base metal)
4, By extracting the fibres and general crap caught in the mark this can be compared with that in other recesses on the badge (under the lip of the hinge being a good place as is generally undisturbed.
5, Result, the same oil/grease/varnish is present in both locations and is a known "finishing" product (ie either a gloss/varnish/paint or corrosion preventative) applied when the badge left the factory.
6, Obviously a long and convoluted way to proving the badge and mark to be wartime but the piece of mind that its genuine was well worth the time IMO!
7, return to Madrid happy to a girlfriend who coos delightfully yet not understanding one iota as to why this makes me happy, ah well!

[Neil Howes]

Hi Skip,

I do think that the Deumers are hand finished, drilled & filed as both of mine dffer from other examples, just compare my J2 type with Rich's.

Look at the quality of the casting & finish of a Deumer eagle to a Juncker, far better, so different casting in my opinion.

Regards,

Neil

[Rich G]

Nice find Rich,

That fits nicely to your Deumer AG/RO huh?
I would disagree that the hole between the legs of the Deumer is from hand finishing. It is much to narrow to be done with a file. I would think that this was done in the original stamping and that Deumer and Juncker did in fact each have their own dies. Albeit probably both made by the same master die cutter.

Skip, yes they make a lovely pair!

As for the hole... I looked at it closely under a loupe and can tell you that the larger section is perfectly round and the slot straight. In my eyes that is made by a fine drill bit and then a small saw blade or file used to make the remaining cut. You'd wonder why on earth go to such detail? The must have been very proud of their pilot badges in the Deumer company!

Of course, the easiest way to really prove the theory is if there's one out there with no void.

@ Angus : Thanks providing that information on stamping. One question though... if the stamp was applied cold how did they apply it without damaging the obverse detail? It must have taken considerable force to mark it?

Rich

[Tim Calvert]

Good info Angus, Thanks.


While we are talking Deumer....does everybody still agree that this is an early thin Deumer???

[Rich G]

TC

I think that early type is a Deumer/Juncker but I'm sure more learned collectors here can shed more light on this.

I'm sure we'd all appreciate input from others on that one

Rich
ps, Is that stlye of wreath not also found as a parabadge with an Assmann eagle?

[Frank Heukemes]

Remarkable! That is the same leaf design as found on the late war LW badges by the "unknown maker"!

@Rich: if you are thinking about the egg shaped wreath early paras with Assmann style eagle, these are different in respect to wreath design. Also the earlier Juncker para badge´s leaf design (also to be found with Assmann eagles) is different.

[rocket]

Hi Frank,Ihave one question.Where did you get the picture from?This badge is from my collection.

[Tim Calvert]

[QUOTE=Frank Heukemes]Remarkable! That is the same leaf design as found on the late war LW badges by the "unknown maker"!

Frank, are you absolutely sure???? Here's a closer shot for comparison, check the first leaf on the left....??

Rich, this badge is definitely from a different die than the early Juncker.

[rocket]

pic

[Tim Calvert]

It's close, but they are not the same. I just whipped out my unmarked pilot in tombak...same as Rocket's, but different than the "early Deumer".

For instance, start at the bottom of the wreath. Go one leaf to the left, then check out the vein that runs through the highest of the three...let me see if I can illustrate. This will look retarded as I am a retard when it comes to computers. OK, can you see my lame little green arrow? It's pointing at the top vein on the early pilot. Notice its placement...

[Tim Calvert]

And here's Rocket's again...check out the placement...

[anguspm]

Further answers/clarification:

@ Richard: Normally for a mass produced item you´ld have a half die (sometimes with fine detailing) into which the eagle would be placed face down. Then by using a punch/stamp and a hammer the mark is applied. By having a die half with the detailing this actually imprints better details to the obverse. as you can imagine the original piece has rough edges after stamping or casting. By cold stamping later you get a better quality finish. It´s a technique I used alot when making presentation pieces for people leaving the British army. On a historical note the origins of this technique come from early blacksmithing which was adopted IIRC by either the greeks or romans in their mints.

regards to all,

[Rich G]

@Rich: if you are thinking about the egg shaped wreath early paras with Assmann style eagle, these are different in respect to wreath design. Also the earlier Juncker para badge´s leaf design (also to be found with Assmann eagles) is different.

Frank

Specifically, I was thinking of this type. Is that what you were referring to?

Rich