Round Wreath Pilot Badges - New Evidence

[Tim Calvert]

Thanks for posting the pics Jeff.

I wonder how many German women pilots (speaking mainly of ferry pilots) went through military training.

The pilots badge was awarded at the completion of military flight training.

Did these women (not talking about Reitsh) go through formal training or were they more likely civilian pilots that were brought up to speed for use in ferrying?

For instance, Erich Hartmann's mother was a civilian pilot so they were certainly out there. I find it hard to imagine the girls going through the entire program, simply due to the common outlook at the time (ladies in the kitchen).

Maybe the round wreath addressed the fact that they hadn't completed formal military training.

Strictly conjecture of course!

[Jeff V]

Thanks for posting the pics Jeff.

I wonder how many German women pilots (speaking mainly of ferry pilots) went through military training.

The pilots badge was awarded at the completion of military flight training.

Did these women (not talking about Reitsh) go through formal training or were they more likely civilian pilots that were brought up to speed for use in ferrying?

For instance, Erich Hartmann's mother was a civilian pilot so they were certainly out there. I find it hard to imagine the girls going through the entire program, simply due to the common outlook at the time (ladies in the kitchen).

Maybe the round wreath addressed the fact that they hadn't completed formal military training.

Strictly conjecture of course!

Good points Tim. If they were ferrying military aircraft to the front perhaps they did undergo some sort of military training, or maybe there was just some sort of specialized training to familiarize them with the planes. This is a pretty unknown area of the war-at least to me. Maybe some other members can shed some better light on these women ferry pilots.
best wishes,
jeff

[Rich G]

I can only assume that if these female pilots went through the same flight course as other pilots, they would be entitled to wear the pilot badge and would have the certificate.

As far as I remember ( and am happy to be corrected) Hanna Reitsch received here special grade pilot badge as a gift, a kind of thank-you for all the test flights she had done and never had any regular pilot badge of any description round wreath or oval.

Perhaps Juncker decided to jump on the band wagon and create these round wreath badges for female pilots, as a side line or as a gift item, basing it on the style of H Reitsch's award? All speculation but maybe.

Anyone know what date she received this piece?

Rich

[mmiller]

My only substantive question at this point is why redesign the wreath? Gentry presents a logical reason ( though lacking documents we can only guess). So any other possible reasons? And I mean good ideas, not mark miller's German UFO badge.

Hold on Garlasco,

It came with a COA.......

[Marc Garlasco]

Yeah, But Detlev went outta business...

[Jos L C]

Hanna ...

Both her badges look rather oval ..


Jos.

[Jeff V]

Hi Jos, the diamonds badge is rounder in shape. It is not perfectly round but is a far cry from the oval wreath normal pilots badge. Compare the eagles, you will see the eagle from the diamonds badge has a flatter horizontal wing profile. Maybe someone who knows photoshop can do an overlay of the two badges to show what I am talking about.
best wishes,
jeff

[jambobbyb]

Hi guys would it maybe be an idea to work out how many of this exact type of oval zinc non marked ...things are out there? My thinking is if there are 100s of this type then surely there would be photographic evidence where as if there are only a handfull......

[Jos L C]

Hi Jos, the diamonds badge is rounder in shape. It is not perfectly round but is a far cry from the oval wreath normal pilots badge. Compare the eagles, you will see the eagle from the diamonds badge has a flatter horizontal wing profile. Maybe someone who knows photoshop can do an overlay of the two badges to show what I am talking about.
best wishes,
jeff

Think the Hanna badge is a jeweler piece, doesn't has to do much with shape IMO, don't think government ordered it as " make it a bit more round, it's for a lady" ..

About the badge in Question, you really think Juncker designed, created a new wreath for a handful of women end of the war ?
Regular (other maker) pilot badges were still available.


Jos.

[Leroy]

Hey guys, don't fight over this. It's just a theory at this point.

Do, however, please, look again at the round civil glider proficiency badge and then read this article for a good overview concerning female pilots: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...89686&start=15

[Darrell]

Just fyi, the alleged photographic evidence shows the round wreath being worn by men.

Tom

Tom I hope they are not the ones that surfaced a year or two ago. I can;t seem to find the thread, but it appears the pictures were distorted like below to resemble a "round" wreath. Although it wasn't quite as obvious as this attempt.

[Jeff V]

"About the badge in Question, you really think Juncker designed, created a new wreath for a handful of women end of the war ?
Regular (other maker) pilot badges were still available."

Hi Jos, sure, why not. We know the Germans were going to put other odd badges into production at the end of the war such as the Kleinkampfmittelverbande of the Kriegsmarine. A lot fewer of those guys around than women ferry pilots I would guess. Just because the war was being lost did not mean the government shut down, in fact, quite the opposite. New orders were placed and business went on as usual, lest one be a traitor or defeatist.
best wishes,
jeff

[solo]

I think it's a standard pilot badge in this photo not the brillant one.So also to woman was given the oval not round.IMO
Carlo

[Peter J.]

Has anybody tried to get in touch with Christian Tettinek, the guy who wrote an article in IMM 1991 on this topic or are his statements taken out of the air?

cheers
Peter

[Leroy]

Peter - Do you have a copy of this article, or know where the author is? It would be great to see!

Just for a timeframe check, Hanna Reitsch received the EKII in March, 1941 and the P/O with Brilliants at the same time, so the photos are very far from being late in the war. The photo with the standard badge (also honorary) would have been even earlier. In 1943, Reitsch suggested to Hitler the idea of an all-female fighter squadron (along the lines of what the Russians were up to) but the idea was not accepted. Instead, women kept on in their roles as glider instructors and ferry pilots. Martin Caidin, in his great 1964 book "Black Thursday" (about the Schweinfurt bombing mission in October, 1943) mentioned an American fighter pilot who shot down several Me-109s while they were in a landing pattern, and who was of course very proud and excited, only later to learn from Intelligence briefers that they were all being flown by women ferry pilots.

The "Round Wreath" pilot badge may end up not at all being for women, but they were certainly there and flying military aircraft, so they are at least a possible candidate.