Round Wreath Pilot Badges - New Evidence

[Marc Garlasco]

Where are the regulations? Where are the photos in wear? Nice job Tom but I remain a HUGE skeptic.

[Matthew]

Where are the regulations? Nice job Tom but I remain a HUGE skeptic.

They are out there along with danzig flak badge regulations among others...

Tom, you forgot to say DONE.
Stick a fork in it

[Winston]

As usual convincing presentation Mr.D However,I have a more conservative approach and consider them not for my collection.I would also like to see some regulations on these badges.I am good with design changes like J1-J3,but why change the form of a wreath the whole industry made differently before.

[mmiller]

Where are the regulations? Where are the photos in wear? Nice job Tom but I remain a HUGE skeptic.

Ditto from me.

Mark

[D.Trooper]

A hell of a good job on that badge if its not original.

[mmiller]

Once again, Very convincing argument ...... right up to the point of purchasing one for $2000, and trying to resell it ......

[Rich G]

Tom,

I wouldn't put much on these details on hinges, catches, etc because they where made by the 10,000s by sub-contracted companies and could well have been picked up well after the war ended. Heck, they are still being found today.

The first thing I'd be looking at is the eagle. Is it without a shadow of a doubt, a 'Juncker' product. I put that in single quotes because do we actually know 100% without doubt that the die for these eagles was owned by and solely used by Juncker? Perhaps some one sourced a bunch of eagles and hardware from the ruined factory but no wreaths and therefore had to go create a brand new wreath and for what? Why? It just all seems so improbable.

If the eagle came from a sub-contractor then who knows for how long these were made or where made available long after the Juncker factory was supposedly wiped out.

Who knows what company supplied the frosting and it availablity after the war ended?

Too many unknowns IMO. And...why change the design of the wreath...where is the order for this badge to be created, etc.?

Rich

[jambobbyb]

I have a round pilots that is exactly the same as this one, I have always thought it was an interesting badge which shares many similarities with other Juncker pieces, who knows maybe there's a picture out there showing these being worn even so there are still many questions that are open regarding these I can wholly understand the sceptics. Many thanks for the great comparrisons and rational discussion Tom.

[Thomas Durante]

Damn Tom,

Nice job!

My only concern is...how to tell exactly when the badge was made (pre- or post may 45). For Luftwaffe pilots...or G.I.s...or both?

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. Some very good questions have been raised that I really do not have an answer for. Firstly, I would ask that we limit the comments to "constructive" ones that discuss specifically the aspects of the badge and/or history of these round-wreath pilot badges (whether negative or positive). Comments like "not for my collection" are obvious and don't really add information to the discussion. Heck, I am not even ready to add one of these to my collection as I am still iffy about them! I just found it interesting that there are so many aspects of them that conform to what we consider as wartime-produced Juncker badges and why I started this thread.

Tim, your comment above is the million dollar question. I think without a doubt, some makers continued to make badges after May 1945 using original dies. Firms like S&L did for sure, and they also built badges using leftover wartime parts. For me, the real question is DID MAKERS CREATE NEW DIES IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WAR???

There is alleged provenance from several sources that some of these came back home with vets as early as 1946. If this is true, then do we think it is likely that makers made new dies in 1946 to make badges just for GIs? In my opinion, I would think that in 1946 there was still plenty of leftover wartime stock that there was no need to make new dies, but I really don't know for sure either way.

Regarding Richard's comments about the sharing of hardware. Sure this was done, but to a MUCH LESSER extent then we think. These long barrel hinges are not very common at all. Of the 100+ badge makers we know of, I only know of Juncker, S&L & Fritz Zimmermann using these hinges, and IMME to a much lesser extent. S&L & FZZS hinges are the same shape, but they rarely have the same distinct tool mark running on the barrels. Based on this fact, I find the hinge a very strong connection to Juncker because they are so rarely seen.

The wire for the catch is also very unique. I cannot think of another maker where there is striations running along its sides like Juncker. For the 3 makers above that had the same hinge, these striations on the catch are NOT found on IMME or FZZS badges. Furthermore, S&L only used flatware catches late in the war, so the only maker left is Juncker. It is the combination of hardware that is really important rather than each individual piece.

Even without the benefit of the unique hinge and catch, the fact that the rivets are TEXTBOOK Juncker is very important. Rivet shapes are a specific fingerprint that is different from each maker. Rivets may have been purchased from a subcontractor, but they most certainly were formed in the individual factories. No other rivets look like Juncker, they are unique. And one other aspect that I forgot to mention is that Juncker ALWAYS used brass rivets throughout the entire war. When most other makers switched to zinc eagles, they also switched to zinc rivets (Assmann, B&NL, Osang, FLL, etc.). But Juncker kept on using brass....so its a pretty unique characteristic of Juncker LW badges. That is what we see on these round-wreath pilot badges, so its yet another fingerprint of Juncker.

Ultimately, all these little "forensic" details suggest that the same Juncker workers that made the late war #PABs and Para badges were the same makers that put these round wreath pilot badges together. That is really all we can say at this point. Whether they did it before May 1945 or after can and will still be debated. But the forensics on the badge are undeniable IMO.

Tom

[Marc Garlasco]

Tom,
So just to play along (and I am a huge skeptic) what was the need? Was it because cej was bombed and needed to replace their wreaths? The eagle die survived but not the wreath? Then why change the designated shape? The shape was mandated in regulations and I am just trying to divine the need for such a substantial design change.
Marc

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Marc,

I have all the same questions you do. But anything we come up with is pure speculation. Your guesses are as good as mine, I really don't know why a new design was created.

However, would you agree that the forensics of the badge is 100% characteristic of wartime-produced Juncker badges?

Tom

[Leroy]

As I speculated in a different thread, I am wondering whether, if these badges are wartime, they are related to the use of women as ferry pilots later in the war. Women were also used as glider instructors. Here is a link to an interesting recent article: http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...ts-at-war.html

If you look at the civil glider proficiency badges, the wreath is round. If you look at Hanna Reitsch, her P/O is more round than oval. Could it be that the design on the Round Pilot is an effort to accomodate women pilots (who apparently did have uniforms and honorary ranks)? It would appear that, if the war had continued, the use of women in these positions would have expanded.
Certainly, women ferry pilots and instructors were already in use in great numbers by the US and Great Britain, not to mention the use of women pilots in the USSR, some of whom were renowned combat pilots.

The lack of specific paperwork to document this badge is unfortunate, but a great deal of paperwork is either missing, or buried somewhere else where you'd never think to look for it.

Just a thought.

[Marc Garlasco]

Hi Marc,

I have all the same questions you do. But anything we come up with is pure speculation. Your guesses are as good as mine, I really don't know why a new design was created.

However, would you agree that the forensics of the badge is 100% characteristic of wartime-produced Juncker badges?

Tom

Come on Tom, stop being so modest!

As always your analysis of the item, devoid of bullsiht or emotion, is excellent. I am just trying to be a healthy skeptic, looking for something else before we see these on dealers sites for $2-$5k listed as something crazy. Then along comes a novice collector who thinks it is the bees knees, and bang. But the manufacturing analysis is well done as always.

Gentry, as good an answer as any. I have also heard the Me-262 story. A lot COULD be the answer. I just hope we find it someday.
Marc

[Darrell]

......... For me, the real question is DID MAKERS CREATE NEW DIES IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WAR???.......

Tom

Tom, very good presentation. Seems the evidence provided puts these in a very different light. However, like others I still sit on the fence ....

But the statement you make above might not be one that many people are wanting to hear. I can imagine the effect on TR collecting if the damn bursts one day

[Leroy]

And just for the fun of it, here are a couple of photos of Melitta von Stauffenberg (sister-in-law of the other von Stauffenberg) taken at Gatow in June, 1943. Note the EKII ribbon on her jacket (but still too early, if in fact they were wartime, to show a pilot badge). She was shot down and killed at the end of the war by U.S. fighters while flying a trainer.