Round Wreath Pilot Badges - New Evidence

[Leroy]

Expanded article/discussion here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...89686&start=15

Regarding the use of this badge for Me-262 or Me-163 pilots, or pilots of other innovative aircraft, I personally believe that this is just "dealer BS" designed to hype a badge they couldn't explain or document. Operational pilots of these new aircraft were, in the vast majority, already trained, experienced and qualified pilots drawn from other Luftwaffe opertional units. They didn't need a new badge.

[Jeff V]

Let me ask a question, to everyone who believes strongly in post war production. Why are post war badges always late war pieces? How do you know that your tombak Juncker J1 pilot was not made in 1947? Don't you think that these firms had access to the same early materials after the war, in fact, with no regulation to force them to use cheaper materials they could have easily switched back to tomback and the tombak dies. After all there was supposedly so much hardware left over they could make whatever they wanted for the GIs.
As far as lack of pictures go the propaganda arm of reich photographers were not out documenting the collapse of their empire. Even to find late war photographs of say the Grossdeutshland Division is very difficult.
Just so everyone is clear I do not have one of these badges, but I am reminded when it was proved that the earth was round many still believed it to be flat.
best wishes,
jeff

[Thomas Durante]

Let me ask a question, to everyone who believes strongly in post war production. Why are post war badges always late war pieces? How do you know that your tombak Juncker J1 pilot was not made in 1947? Don't you think that these firms had access to the same early materials after the war

Hi Jeff,

Its logical to think that when Juncker switched from the J1 eagle to the J2 (probably in 1939), that they destroyed the die or melted it down to make another die, etc. Same when they switched from J2 to the J3 (probably in 1941)We know that Juncker switched patterns during the war, so why keep the useless, obsolute earlier dies around that they didn't plan to use anymore?

Its also logical to think that if any maker continued to punch out badges after the war in 1946, 1947 or whenever, that they would simply use the dies they had immediately laying around. These would naturally be the last dies they were using in the war.

I would tend to disagree with you that firms had lots of early, raw materials laying around after the war. If they didn't have access to these higher-quality metals starting in 1942 (when zinc began to be used), I don't see why they would all of a sudden have plenty of it laying around in 1946 or 1947. Again, this is all speculation and none of us really know what went on immediately after the war.

One more thought is that WHY would someone make a round wreath pilot badge? This goes for the fakers as well as the original badge makers. If I was a German maker and wanted to make some wreaths in 1946 to sell as souveneirs, why would they make them round?? Apparently everything they had seen as far as we could tell during the entire war is LW badges with OVAL wreathes. So why make it so different?

The fact that they ARE different is very interesting, and not something we should just dismiss as "fakers being idiots".

Tom

[mmiller]

when it was proved that the earth was round many still believed it to be flat.
best wishes,
jeff

No way. Who told you that!



Mark

[Niblet]

Nice presentation Tom!

[PAB_Collector]

Thomas, great work once again.

As an outright disbeliever of these round badges (mostly based on the lack of photographic evidence, and why a round wreath was needed), this article is very very poignant from the technical and physical construction standpoint.

Thanks for posting this information.

[Jeff V]

Hi Tom, every GI wanted a helmet. Did the helmet manufacturers continue on producing helmets for GIs after the war? Also , I never said that firms had early materials laying around, I said they would certainly have had access to them postwar as proven by 57 pieces which are not made of zinc. I did say they would have surely had early hardware left over. Also, to assume all the early dies disappeared is not believable.

Mark Miller- I knew some flat earthers still existed!!
best wishes,
jeff

[Gene]

How many of you have actually asked veteran pilots about these badges, other than myself? Having met many vets while living in Germany, especially pilots and HG members, I learned quite a bit. The HG vets I spoke with said they never saw, only heard about existing on paper, the Luftwaffe versions of the close combat clasp and Panzer assault badge. The pilots I spoke with never heard of a round pilot's badge. No matter how forensically perfect a round pilot's badge may be, I have to go with what are the experiences of the actual veterans who wore such badges. So many of these have popped up with not a single photo showing one in wear, and I believe the reason for that is because they never existed during the war.

[Jeff V]

Ok, since this is clearly a Juncker product when do you guys think it was made after the war? Did the Germans really rebuild the Juncker factory to produce awards for GI's? Do you guys think that the round wreath pilot badge is the ONLY award that Juncker produced after the war? IF this piece is postwar, it opens up a giant can of worms for all Juncker products.
best wishes,
jeff

[Leroy]

I agree somewhat with Gene, but then how many women pilots have been asked about what they had or what they were told they would have?

We will never know or document everything that was done or planned in the final months of the war. Heck, we can't even agree on what was done earlier than that.

If someone wants to think that Juncker, despite being bombed into oblivion by at least February, 1945, made new TR badges after the war, with all the exact same features of pieces made during the war, then God bless 'em. For me, these badges are now established as wartime produced. Maybe not circulated, but certainly made. Now, the trick is to figure out what they were intended for.

[Marc Garlasco]

Gentry - that phd thesis is something! Thanks very much for the link.

[Thomas Durante]

Also, to assume all the early dies disappeared is not believable.

Jeff, your speculation is as good as mine. We really don't know either way.

Gene, thanks for your input about the vet interviews, always helpful in cases like this. But I will say that it only takes 1 vet to turn this completely around. A perfect example is the big-bird Glider badges. For years and years all the vets that were interviewed and tracked down by Stijn David and others had either Juncker or BSW badges. For many years, these were the only accepted originals and all other deemed fake. But one day photographic evidence surfaced showing the big-bird badge in wear and that badge instantly turned into a rare original! Maybe not awarded, but definately produced and worn by Glider Pilots.

Ultimately, I agree that photographic evidence would be extremely helpful here. I will say that the source I got these pilot badges from has mentioned that pictures DO EXIST, however he cannot find them at the moment! I don't hold out much hope for these, but always willing to take a look at see what we can find.

Good discussion guys

Tom

[Marc Garlasco]

Jeff - to say they had Tombak in 1957 for those awards leaves A LOT of years for postwar production that is unaccounted for and likely zinc.

[Jeff V]

Jeff - to say they had Tombak in 1957 for those awards leaves A LOT of years for postwar production that is unaccounted for and likely zinc.

How do you sleep at night Marc knowing that most of your flak badges being manufactured in zink are possibly postwar production for GIs? After all, the correct hardware, finish and materials don't seem to mean a whole lot when it comes to a badge you don't like.
best wishes.
jeff

[Marc Garlasco]

Jeff, come on - can we have a friendly discussion or do you have to be a jerk? Is that necessary?