S&L Para Badge - Opinions Please!

[mmiller]

Mark,


Does your JFS para have the wide or round wire pin?

Bob Hritz

Wide fluted.

[robert60446]

Hi Robert,
I guess only us Coca-Cola boys are still up.

Coca-Cola and McDonald's...

Here are my issues:

1) Most all makermark recesses I have ever seen and handled are not brighter than the surface of the main body of the badge. They preserve finish, yes I agree, BUT, the recesses always accululate the dirt and 'crud'. To me, the bright surface in the recess bottom and walls is most likely the result of a recent makermark 'punch', thus shining up the recess area and revealing the 'glimmering gold' finish beneath.

Mark,
Good points, however i did not made that picture. This goldish thing could be because of the sunlight angle when the image was recorded. Personally, I would love to have this badge for the privet photo session.

2) The oddball S&L makermark. I like the makermark on the Luft Summer Breast Eagle. Sharply made and detailed. The S&L makermark on the para is less convincing than some of the poorer GWL P/O fake makermarks these days. Show me one other S&L makermark, on any S&L badge, that matches exactly the para makermark, and I'll begin changing my tune immediately. (Please, no prototype makermark stories at bedtime...... )

I don't believe in the prototype stories either. That's always the lamest excuse. Anyhow it is my strong believe that company like S&L could afford to have few punch marks with their maker mark. Unfortunately i don't have another example with match to maker mark from Toby's badge, but if someone is walking around with S&L maker mark punching tool shouldn't we see more of his work?

3) Since I don't live there, what have I missed in the PAB/GAB world, that has provided a definative link between unmarked badges utilizing similar setup combinations and S&L? I understand all these badges share the same reverse crap; how does that equate to S&L? What have I missed?

Mark,
Frank prove it this to us few times in the past. I'm sleepy now, but if Frank will not post his answer to your question tomorrow morning, i will search for few links with old threads for you.

[Frank Heukemes]

@Mark:

3) Since I don't live there, what have I missed in the PAB/GAB world, that has provided a definative link between unmarked badges utilizing similar setup combinations and S&L? I understand all these badges share the same reverse crap; how does that equate to S&L? What have I missed?

I proved exactly that point (I would like to think) with many pics in my book which is on its way to you.

I understand the concept Frank, thank you. Supposing I have badges A, B, and C all coming from one maker. All finishes, surfaces, oddities, etc. are assumed identical. What if I have no maker's catalogue or badges found in maker's packets? How do I use the setup COMBINATION process at this point? Let's face it..... a maker's catalogue and a maker marked packet are scarce to come by in 2005. Even with a packet, it's near impossible to prove the badge contained within to be original to that packet.

Of course it is not always possible to collect all of this evidence easily and at once. I such cases you mention, you keep your thoughts in mind until you come across more evidence which either further supports your theory or destroys it. In between, one might be foolish enough to present these thoughts ("unknown pilot may be FLL, these paras may be S&L") to the collecting community and get your well deserved beating. Probably better to drink a large cup of shut the fack up until everything is proven and presentable. I love to think that through discussion, more things come to light and a theory is either carried on, supported further or destroyed by other believable evidence. Either of these results I love best. Unfortunately, most of the time things get just more cloudy because people love to disbelieve first.
I love to mention the "real Wernstein" case in this context. The poll showed that a good amount of people thought I was insane doubting Übermeisters like Nimmergut. I just hope the presented and translated emails from Jörg Nimmergut showed you all how the Wernstein mistake came into being. Carelessness, the readiness to believe some things because they are written somewhere, the lack of passion to investigate further, the defense mechanism or almost fear of not letting anything new into one's world of set standards.


@Bob:

It is probably solely my opinion that the hollow eagle paras are post war badges. It is my personal conclusion and I just voiced my opinion and was careful enough to ass the word opinion in that sentence. I base this opinion on that fact that the hollow eagle pilot badges (obviously from the same source) and several other badges (e.g. LW Flak, glider with soldered on eagle, flight clasps) feature a setup which is exclusively a post war Steinhauer & Lück setup, using an oval catch plate under a strangely stout hinge. Small "o" maker marks on some of the flight clasps of this kind prove that point, also 1957 badges made my S&L, featuring the same setup prove that point. Additionally a friend of mine has bought such badges directly from S&L in the seventies.

Firmly believing (i.e. me, personally) that the paras in this thread were made by S&L in combination with the findings about the badges mentioned in the chapter above allows (for me, personally) to link the hollow eagle badge to S&L. Why?

1) Design is the same as on the wartime paras
2) The hollow eagle is made in the very same production fashion as the post war S&L hollow eagle pilot badges
3) The hollow eagle para uses the same setup as the wartime badges (probably using up wartime leftovers of setups)

This formed my OPINION that the hollow eagle paras are post war S&L.

In my opinion JFS paras and RK radio/air gunner badges are originals without any doubt.

[Bob Stevens]

Frank,
I admire your open mind and work but you have only given an opinion and that's fine.
I,myself, and suspect most serious Lufty collectors who not want that badge in their collection. It has been noticable to me that plenty of heavyweights have not chimed in to support you on this but you are still the tops in my book!

[crowback]

Catch

Although bent over, this catch appears to be the same as this one posted by Frank - http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d=375218&stc=1


-

..

[mmiller]

Hi Robert,

Mark,
Good points, however i did not made that picture. This goldish thing could be because of the sunlight angle when the image was recorded. Personally, I would love to have this badge for the privet photo session.

Robert, Be very carefull and discrete here. If your PABs ever find out that there even exists the possibility of another Woman in the Modelling Studio, especially a 'Parababe', you will be taking lots of cold showers, and walking by yourself in the park!

......"if someone is walking around with S&L maker mark punching tool shouldn't we see more of his work?'......

Robert, ..........Time..... the great equalizer. I'm not at the European shows and markets to see 'what's hot, and what's not', but as other Members are voicing, 'one' can buy just about anything 'one' desires, on the streets of the Old Continent. Again, IMHO, the para makermark is a remote crude representation of the classic Luft Eagle makermark.

Looks like Frank has replied to me.

I hope you sleeeeeeeep with 'visions of PABs, dancing [naked] in your head'!!!

MM

[robert60446]

I hope you sleeeeeeeep with 'visions of PABs, dancing [naked] in your head'!!!

MM

Good morning Mark,
every night my friend, every night......

[mmiller]

@Mark:

"..... Unfortunately, most of the time things get just more cloudy because people love to disbelieve first..... .....the defense mechanism or almost fear of not letting anything new into one's world of set standards....."

Frank,

Thanks for the reply. Most of your comments I concur with 100%. Please don't forget though, each time we have been ripped off, we naturally became more defensive. And as for the disbelief, defense mechanisms, skepticism, and outright paranoia, I think it is a very basic necessity in collecting in 2005. The fakes have gotten better, the finishes have gotten better, the artificial aging technique has become an artform unto itself, the Internet ripoff and advertisement of mechandise other than what is being sold is a thief's dream come true........ This Forum has been teaching people to exercise extreme caution in this Hobby. I like to think that we are following our own rules. While many of us are closing the schloss gates, you are still out there in search of new lands.

As for you presenting your bold new ideas and becoming a target, well, some learn quicker than others!!! Don't let us get in your way. "Go for it"!


Mark

[skip]

Well heavyweight here or there I liked the badge enough to tell Toby I´d be interested in buying it for the right price. We decided together to put it in here for remarks just to see what sort of response we would get. I knew beforehand that this was a S&L mark, and was pretty sure that Frank would be the one to defend it. Actually I don´t really care what the other opinions are I just want to get it in my hands first of all. Toby should be posting another example here, from the same collection, later today.

As to the other points. I also don´t like the hollow eagle badges and am convinced that they are post war S&L pieces.
RK AG/ROs and JFS Paras are definatly something I would take into the collection, I did´nt know there were variant hooks on these. Any chance of some photos from the two lucky owners?
In fact I was only aware of one example worldwide until now.

Skip

[Frank Heukemes]

I have four JFS paras in my files, not counting Bob`s which I haven´t see yet.

[skip]

Send me them over when you find the time please Frank. I have only one. You know the address.

Skip

[mmiller]

Hi Skip,

You otta remember the thread and images.... you were there.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=jfs+para

I don't think we have seen BHritz' JFS yet, at least I haven't. I didn't think there was a variation hook, either. The one and only JFS style, that we have come to know and love, is the only catch I am aware of.

Sorry I still have no camera, only scanner, so these images are all I can provide.

Mark

[skip]

Yep, thats the only one I have in my files. Sorry Mark, forgot it belonged to you.

So were do the others, except Bobs, all come from?
Skip

[Bob Stevens]

Well heavyweight here or there I liked the badge enough to tell Toby I´d be interested in buying it for the right price. We decided together to put it in here for remarks just to see what sort of response we would get. I knew beforehand that this was a S&L mark, and was pretty sure that Frank would be the one to defend it. Actually I don´t really care what the other opinions are I just want to get it in my hands first of all. Toby should be posting another example here, from the same collection, later today.

As to the other points. I also don´t like the hollow eagle badges and am convinced that they are post war S&L pieces.
RK AG/ROs and JFS Paras are definatly something I would take into the collection, I did´nt know there were variant hooks on these. Any chance of some photos from the two lucky owners?
In fact I was only aware of one example worldwide until now.

Skip

Excellent Skip and this goes to show you that only you have to be happy in what you collect and all opinions don't really matter.

[Bob Hritz]

Some pics



Bob Hritz