S&L Para Badge - Opinions Please!

[Bob Hritz]

Verso

[Bob Hritz]

RK detail

[skip]

Thanks Bob. Luv ´em both.

Skip

[robert60446]

Bob,
Is it possible for you to post picture of the catch area from JFS badge? Please check my picture for reference. Thanks in advance.

[mmiller]

Robert,

As I always preface the image...... struggled with the scanner to get the JFS para.

This with the coke-bottle fluted pin.

MM

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys,


I'm a little late to this thread but just now took the time the go over all the arguments posted.

Based upon the badges Fank provided and the known war time set-up evolutions on S&L badges in general I tend to conclude that Toby's badge indeed is an original.

Problem with these discussions is that Frank's way of thinking, gathering and linking evidence for most of us is absolutely impossible to follow because many of us are sitting on an island and just don't have the possibility to make the same links he's making based upon research on many hundreds of badges be it Heer LW or KM.

Hardware indeed was shared by different makers but I don't think Frank ever reached a single conclusion based upon hardware alone there is much more to it.

Gerd of course has a good point in bringing to our attention the Haas & co fakes but without examining several of these badges together with original later war S&L para's you will never be able to reach a definitive conclusion.

The question you have to ask yourself is how these copies were made. IMO just like it is the case with the S&L GAB the original dies somehow got in the hands of the wrong people. Only recently I saw S&L GAB and S&L IAB "rohlinge" offered for sale by one and the same guy. The GAB "rohling" clearly was the superb S&L fake. The fact that this guy also offered the S&L IAB rohling for me was rather frightening because this would mean that S&L IAB while we speak most likely are still copied. Only problem is that we never saw a good S&L IAB copy. IMO this can only mean that we don't recongnize them as such and accept them as originals.

Thourough research is what enabled us to disguise the S&L GAB fake. Thorough research of the S&L para fakes Gerd finds on every street corner together with the badges Frank concludes to be original is the only way to tackel this problem. Once all these badges can fysicaly be brought together I'm sure evidence will be found to distinguish between original and copy. This simply can't be don by looking at pictures.

KR
Philippe

[mmiller]

Philippe,

Very good summary!

Mark

[spectre]

I have read through all of this twice now to digest it. While Frank's S&L theory is very interesting on these paratrooper's, I still find Toby's badge odd. For me the rivet on the wing tip is on the outer edge of the wreath when no other's are and the gold finish flaking off on the eagle looks very unusual for an original badge, but that's just me.

Like others, I had always referred to this type of para as a Juncker now we may have to re-think that. I have two of these myself, first up is a worn example from Weitze last year...
Alan

[spectre]

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[spectre]

The other is the one previously shown as Yuri's but now in the humble Alan collection, here is what a scan looks like,

[spectre]

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[spectre]

Now, these previous badges lead up to this big question, if they are really S&L instead of Juncker then are these type of ground assault badges also S&L? I had always refered to these as unmarked Junckers as well.

Alan

[spectre]

front

[TobyR]

Hi Everyone,

Firstly, apologies for my absence from what has become a most fascinating thread.

Anyway, I have now had a chance to make some photos of the second badge in my possession (as mentioned earlier by Skip). I'm afraid the photos aren't the best (I seem to be having a photo off-day presently) but maybe they will help in the quest for answers.

One thing I would point out is that the eagles on both badges appear to have been repainted as evidenced by the flaking paint on the first badge and the over-painting onto the wreath adjacent the tail feathers on the second badge. The reasons for this I do not know though of course we can make our own conclusions, be they positive or negative.

Something I have noticed about both of the badges is that the catch on each shows the same tooling, i.e. a slight lip, about 1.5mm above the end (proved to be hard to pick out on the photos - sorry). Perhaps this is something to look for on other (similar) badges, be they unmarked, or with different maker marks?

You will also notice that the mm are slightly different, since the mm on the follwing badge is quite soft and doesn't go deeply into the badge. The outer circles of the mm are the same diameter though.

Also, a slight variation in weights between the two badges: the first badge weighs in at 23.4g and the following badge, 22,8g.

Anyway, I look forward to following this thread further.

Thanks for all the input.

All the best,
Toby.

[TobyR]

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