S&L Para Badge - Opinions Please!

[Frank Heukemes]

Some more examples, Jay Parisi collection, Cupal eagle, weird numbers on the wreath, but very obviously not a fake.

[Frank Heukemes]

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[Frank Heukemes]

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[Frank Heukemes]

Yuri D. collection

[robert60446]

Remember most of the post war ST&L. badges (RK/DK/EK and so on) are odd. The first ones were good, but the quality went down with the years (see holow para badge).

Gerd,
There is no question in my mind that S&L company was deeply involved in the post war production of badges, ek's rk's and God knows what else. This subject is nothing new here. However i do believe that Toby's badge is original, because harwdare setup is a match to what i can find on the other period badges made by this company (S&L).

[Frank Heukemes]

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[Frank Heukemes]

Wartime repaired catch going through the wreath (see obverse). Fake?

(Collection German collector SURTR)

[Frank Heukemes]

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[Gerd W.]

Dear Gerd,

But the round catch plate is a proven pre 45 S&L evolution catch setup, veryfied by US veteran bringbacks right out of the S&L factory at the end of the war, you can also find it on pre 45 S&L GABs, PABs and IABs.
Actually, the setup you see on the Polish guy's badge is the correct set, as you can see for example on the GAB I posted = narrow block hinge in combination with round catch plate. The badge I sold to Jürg #17, has an intermediate mixed setup, consisting of later narrow barrel hinge and classic catch setup, which usually goes together with the longer, earlier barrel hinge.

I´ve no problems with the round catch plate and I love Jürgs badge! Frank, it´s the combination of round plate attached on a St&L made para badge with odd looking rivets and a poorly made eagle.
Look at all those Haas fakes for example (beside all the different maker marks absolut convincing), there must be a key-point to look for. I try to find this point!!! As said, I dono what to think about St&L badges at the moment..............

[mmiller]

Dear Mark,

......" setup COMBINATIONS. If badges A, B, and C all share the same evolution and use the same setup COMBINATIONS of hinge and catch, then there is s a good possibility they came from one and the same maker. Now here is how I do it: Keeping this hunch in mind, you now look for maker´s catalogues, compare finishes, metals, metal surfaces, oddities which might be similar (a pinched pin) and finally badges found in maker marked packets.".....

I understand the concept Frank, thank you. Supposing I have badges A, B, and C all coming from one maker. All finishes, surfaces, oddities, etc. are assumed identical. What if I have no maker's catalogue or badges found in maker's packets? How do I use the setup COMBINATION process at this point? Let's face it..... a maker's catalogue and a maker marked packet are scarce to come by in 2005. Even with a packet, it's near impossible to prove the badge contained within to be original to that packet.

I am very surprised that even with almost all leads clearly displayed, things still seem to be cloudy.

Frank, Sorry things are still cloudy for me. As you state yourself, maybe I fall into the category of ..."a suspect crowd of people who have not looked into this specific problem yet."

I think this through for many month and collect evidence.

As you yourself indicate, you have spent many months investigating this evidence. Now it is presented here on one thread. I think questions are normal. Few if any of us have spent the hours you have looking at the S&L link. If out of the blue, a collecting revelation was just dropped onto your lap, would you just nod your head??? No way.

This allows for people to either:

a) trust what I found out and accept it
b) follow the points I have raised and investigate them for yourself
c) disbelieve and remain with the Status Quo

And I'll vote for: "b) follow the points I have raised and investigate them for yourself." That doesn't mean I'll follow you like the Pied Piper. I don't have your book. I am not a fanatic PAB and GAB collector. Not everyone on the Forum is. I don't know the evolution of all badges. If I'm a little cloudy on this issue, then possibly others are too.

Mark

Any explanation as to the noticable huge variation of the makermarks, and the bright gold in the recess of the para badge makermark?

TOBY'S EXAMPLE:




JOS' MAKERMARK:

[robert60446]

Any explanation as to the noticable huge variation of the makermarks, and the bright gold in the recess of the para badge makermark?

Mark i can help with this. If you will check my picture you will see more "bright gold" spots preserved on the badge (areas marked with red arrows: 1 and 2). It is not unusual for recess area to preserve finish better then the open space. As for the differences in the maker mark, the S&L it was very busy company, they for sure could have 2 punching tools for this. I’m only guessing here Mark…

[Bob Hritz]

OK, for my reference, have we finally decided that all the Luftwaffe badges with the hollow cupal eagle designs, ie; para and pilot-observer, and the Army Para with the hollow cupal eagle are all post war made by Steinhauer and Luck?

I would love to know the source of this revelation. I need to make some notes, on some badges, and want to make sure for evaluation purposes.

Are the JFS para and RK radio operator badges also post war?

Thank you,
Bob Hritz

[mmiller]

Hi Robert,

I guess only us Coca-Cola boys are still up.

Here are my issues:

1) Most all makermark recesses I have ever seen and handled are not brighter than the surface of the main body of the badge. They preserve finish, yes I agree, BUT, the recesses always accumulate the dirt and 'crud'. To me, the bright surface in the recess bottom and walls is most likely the result of a recent makermark 'punch', thus shining up the recess area and revealing the 'glimmering gold' finish beneath.

2) The oddball S&L makermark. I like the makermark on the Luft Summer Breast Eagle. Sharply made and detailed. The S&L makermark on the para is less convincing than some of the poorer GWL P/O fake makermarks these days. Show me one other S&L makermark, on any S&L badge, that matches exactly the para makermark, and I'll begin changing my tune immediately. (Please, no prototype makermark stories at bedtime...... )

3) Since I don't live there, what have I missed in the PAB/GAB world, that has provided a definative link between unmarked badges utilizing similar setup combinations and S&L? I understand all these badges share the same reverse crap; how does that equate to S&L? What have I missed?

Take it easy!
Mark

[mmiller]

Are the JFS para and RK radio operator badges also post war?

Thank you,
Bob Hritz

Bob,

Don't know about the RK Radio Operator, but since you and I each posses a JFS Para, they are authentic. Period!!!

Mark

[Bob Hritz]

Mark,


Does your JFS para have the wide or round wire pin?

Bob Hritz