S&L Para Badge - Opinions Please!

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Mark,

You even forgot one maker who also used that catch costrcution: Rudolf Souval (on wartime badges such as the Destroyer or some IAB variants). Comparing die characteristics is fine to assign unmarked badges to the same badges which were marked. But this only takes you so far. It takes you to the knowledge base advanced collectors had a couple of years ago. If badge research wants to make progress, more and different methods have to be explored and used at the same time. One is the comparison of setups, but not just setups (now comes the key word!), setup COMBINATIONS. If badges A, B, and C all share the same evolution and use the same setup COMBINATIONS of hinge and catch, then there is s a good possibility they came from one and the same maker. Now here is how I do it: Keeping this hunch in mind, you now look for maker´s catalogues, compare finishes, metals, metal surfaces, oddities which might be similar (a pinched pin) and finally badges found in maker marked packets. When all this comes together and the puzzles pieces fall into place and support each other, a theory becomes a firm belief. It is very hard to transport that to a suspect crowd of people who have not looked into this specific problem yet. I tried to explain my conclusions with pictures for all makers I identified in my GAB book. Everybody will see how I came to the conclusion, what it is based upon. This allows for people to either:

a) trust what I found out and accept it
b) follow the points I have raised and investigate them for yourself
c) disbelieve and remain with the Status Quo

I think twice before I post something and how I arrived at that conclusion, you can trust me that far. I think this through for many month and collect evidence. I am very surprised that even with almost all leads clearly displayed, things still seem to be cloudy.

@Gerd: IMO the hollow eagle paras of the same design are post war Steinhauer & Lück badges for the collector's market, produced in the sixties and seventies. The pilot badges with the hollow eagle are from the same source, same goes for the soldered on eagle glider badges (I am not talking about the ones with the "prototype" design), and a couple of others, e.g. a LW Flak badge type.

[Frank Heukemes]

Btw, thank you Jos for posting that uniform eagle with the same mark. These are the things that bring us further and show how important it is to look at all possible items to draw conclusions.

[Gerd W.]

@Gerd: IMO the hollow eagle paras of the same design are post war Steinhauer & Lück badges for the collector's market, produced in the sixties and seventies.

Did someone ever asked Steinhauer & Lück if in their postwar -collector business program- the "filled" eagle was part off?

Did we have a second "Steinhauer flaw problem" now by para badges here?

Sorry for my ignorance, but I want to understand......(maybe I´m a little bit slow in that case )

[Gerd W.]

reverse

[Bob Stevens]

I wonder if any other of the "big hitters" would like this one in their collection?
We could be on the brink of something quite special here with a devastating new find in the myriad of third reich badges.
Alas, I think not.

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Gerd,

I have all possible S&L contacts and can tell you that you will not get any useful information from them on questions like this one. Partly because these are questions about an illegal business (it is forbidden by German law to produce and sell copies bearing a swastika) and partly because the businessmen who run the show today simply do not know.
But through comparions with the other badges of this post war S&L series (I once put them together in some thread) and live experiences from German friends who bought from S&L in the seventies give a rather complete picture. Thank god it is not very hard to identify post war S&L BADGES, in contrast to the Knight's Crosses which is only easy for Dietrich and Co!
The pic you show from Bob Hritz would be a war time S&L with Cupal eagle (left) next to a post war S&L (right). It is interesting to see that the SAME applied L56 bogus mark was also used on some early post war reproductions by Souval, such as flight clasps. We could recently see an example from Brian S.

[Frank Heukemes]

@Bob: I respect your opinion but all you have offered so far was just that, an opinion. Where is the hardware?

[Gerd W.]

Ok Frank! I´m informed about German law so far and I have to second your statement in that case. But we both know, that there was a busy "under the table" sale............. As far as I remember, there was a thread about Steinhauer & Lück sales after 57 (all was available).

Back to the badge... what we have (or what I have/saw) is

-a grounddug of a Polish member, ok (yep, I´m biased in that case), to prove the wartime availability
-a lot of bagdes sold by well known sources (German swindlers)
-a firm which sold pre 45 related items after 45
-a firm which sold for the "collector market" (repros of course)

and I saw some nice badges of members, which all have a different style of catch/hook system as the badge in question. Will not say, that some of the badge features are more detailed, but it looks like (rivets, eagle).

I told Toby a while ago, that I don´t like his badge. I also told him, that there are collectors out there, who are convinced, that such badges are period and original. I´ve no doubts, that there is a Steinhauer&Lück parabadge which is period, but I don´t think it´s the one Toby showed us here (and not the "Polish" ).

I´ve to work with my eyes and guts only, because I never saw or got such a badge out of the real "woodwork".

[robert60446]

-a grounddug of a Polish member, ok (yep, I´m biased in that case), to prove the wartime availability

Gerd,
Why you have such a hard time to believe in this guy story? If I remember that correctly all his badges are genuine. I see no sense in making a cover-up story for one para badge…Jeez and I thought that we are racist here in US…

[Gerd W.]

Gerd,
Why you have such a hard time to believe in this guy story? If I remember that correctly all his badges are genuine. I see no sense in making a cover-up story for one para badge…Jeez and I thought that we are racist here in US…

Robert! I believe in all stories of course, but only if I´m able to proof the background for myself !
We´re on a way to find out, if all of his badges or the other ones here are geniue or not.

One thing: to bring me in the near of racists is a motto you should not use when you want to talk with me! I think you overshoot the mark a little bit in that case. I said, I´m biased, what is something different IMHO.

Cover story? Sorry, what´s the deeper sence of such a forum? I was on the track, that it has something to do with exchange of experiences? Toby asked a question and some guys try to find out what we have here............am I wrong?

Anyway, back to the topic. I already wrote, that there are numerous badges of this style available at present. You´ll get them with all maker marks you want. Dono what is wrong or what is right at the moment.
Here an example, very same feature and eagle (sorry was not able to load it down), this badge is BN&L marked. Take the chance and go to his table on the Kassel show (example).....the enlightenment will come to you

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Gerd,

Would that mean, as a conclusion on your side, that all badges shown in this thread (except for the one zinc Juncker) are copies/fakes? Or at least all the ones that show the exact same hardware as the Polish member's badge?
If not, who would you reckon is the maker of these badges? Or do you think the badges shown here were made by several makers?

[robert60446]

One thing: to bring me in the near of racists is a motto you should not use when you want to talk with me! I think you overshoot the mark a little bit in that case. I said, I´m biased, what is something different IMHO.

Gerd,
Here are some definitions for you to read:

bi·ased, or bi·assed bi·as·ing, or bi·as·sing bi·as·es or bi·as·ses <o =""></o>

1. To influence in a particular, typically unfair direction; prejudice.<o =""></o>

rac·ism <o =""></o>

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

You have a problem with example used by Frank only because it was provided by a polish member of the forum. Your words again...:

-a grounddug of a Polish member, ok (yep, I´m biased in that case), to prove the wartime availability

...I´ve no doubts, that there is a Steinhauer&Lück parabadge which is period, but I don´t think it´s the one Toby showed us here (and not the "Polish" ).

For me it is racism.

Going back to the topic, i respect your opinion of being suspicious. However case presented (and supported by series of pictures) by Frank looks very strong to me. If you don’t want to accept it that's ok with me, but so far you presented no argument to shot his story down…

[Frank Heukemes]

I think we should leave the racism topic now. The fact that a Polish member's badge is in this discussion is irrelevant. All his ground dug badges proved to be exactly that, obviously ground dug and original.

I did not use his badge to prove pre 45 originality, I thought it was obvious that all badges posted by me (leaving Toby's badge out if this context and up for discussion) are original badges. I think I should quit this hobby if any of the badges posted by me is a fake or remotely looks like one.

Again and over and over and over: I do not post my opinions as absolutes, I just give my opinion and my observations, everybody can do with it what he wants. If you think cross comparing badges, following lines of evolution and the comparison of reverse setups does only lead to false conclusions, so be it.

[Gerd W.]

Dear Gerd,

Would that mean, as a conclusion on your side, that all badges shown in this thread (except for the one zinc Juncker) are copies/fakes? Or at least all the ones that show the exact same hardware as the Polish member's badge?
If not, who would you reckon is the maker of these badges? Or do you think the badges shown here were made by several makers?

#

Frank, as said "I dono what is wrong or what is right at the moment"

For some reasons I tend to agree, that there are ST.&L period badges (why not).
I´m on the way to think, that all bagdes with the very same features as the "Polish" is (or Tobys or others) are highly questionable.
The workmansship of the "round hook plate ones" is IMHO not that good as (for example) Jürgs badge is.
Remember most of the post war ST&L. badges (RK/DK/EK and so on) are odd. The first ones were good, but the quality went down with the years (see holow para badge).

This very special badge style is a available in numerous fakes (see Haas & Co), all have the same eagle, sometimes with matching or different wreath styles and with all maker marks you want or need. Problem (maybe only for me) is, that they´re also available with all kind of hooks and needle setups you need (see my last picture).............

Robert thanks for the lesson! Not always an exchange of experienses as we can see, but sometimes realy helpfull to upgrade my poor english.....

[Frank Heukemes]

The workmansship of the "round hook plate ones" is IMHO not that good as (for example) Jürgs badge is.

Dear Gerd,

But the round catch plate is a proven pre 45 S&L evolution catch setup, veryfied by US veteran bringbacks right out of the S&L factory at the end of the war, you can also find it on pre 45 S&L GABs, PABs and IABs.
Actually, the setup you see on the Polish guy's badge is the correct set, as you can see for example on the GAB I posted = narrow block hinge in combination with round catch plate. The badge I sold to Jürg #17, has an intermediate mixed setup, consisting of later narrow barrel hinge and classic catch setup, which usually goes together with the longer, earlier barrel hinge.