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**Frank K** · 08-02-2010, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

This is often a useful exercise, as it can suggest possible working relationships between manufacturers, or possibly indicate that they used dies derived from a common master die or die producer.

Excellent work Norm!

One comment though. I've always heard about the Lüdenscheid, the Pforzheim, the Vienna etc makers cooperation meaning that the cooperation between makers were locally where you have makers from very different regions in each group.

Does that mean die-wise there was one kind of cooperation and the local cooperation was hardware-wise eg we've run out of hinges and borrow from the maker across the street?

Hopefully you can follow me here

**Peter J.** · 08-02-2010, 07:44 AM

This is what I call dedication for a hobby, great work Norm

cheers
Peter

**km-spain** · 08-02-2010, 07:56 AM

Great work Norm, thanks for share it

**Norm F** · 08-02-2010, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by nachtundnebel View Post

...I've always heard about the Lüdenscheid, the Pforzheim, the Vienna etc makers cooperation meaning that the cooperation between makers were locally where you have makers from very different regions in each group.

Does that mean die-wise there was one kind of cooperation and the local cooperation was hardware-wise eg we've run out of hinges and borrow from the maker across the street?
...

Thanks for the comments guys, it was fun!

Hi Frank,

I think you put it very well. Cooperation can occur on several levels: informal sharing of supplies between neighbours/friends; sharing common hardware suppliers for a local area; sharing a common die producer; more formal business relationships between firms in different cities.

This may explain why some hardware setups are seen shared by makers from disparate cities, whereas others seem more specific to a certain locality or even a specific maker.

As discussed recently on GCA, there may have been a system whereby new badge designs were generated by Schwerin and Juncker, approved by High Command, and then distributed to the other manufacturers to copy. This would account for the high proportion of Schwerin-like and Juncker-like wave patterns in the minesweepers.

Certainly there's good evidence for cooperation between Berlin and Lüdenscheid, given that the Deumer zinc U-boat is a Schwerin design, and S&L actually pictured the Schwerin badges in their 1941 catalogue instead of their own designs.

In the Cross and Wound Badge communities we see a connection betweeen Deumer in Lüdenscheid and Grossmann in Vienna, while neighbours within Vienna, Souval and Hobacher, used an identical minesweeper design. Many other such examples of cooperation exist.

I think Basti and Andreas' book on Wound Badges, when it comes out, will be full of lots of such information with regards to the Wound Badge manufacturers.

It seems there was much wheeling and dealing going on between various manufacturers, so that analysis of an unmarked badge requires a multi-factorial approach looking at die characteristics, trimming outlines, hardware and finish to come up with the best or most likely attribution.

Cheers.
---Norm

**Jody** · 08-02-2010, 02:30 PM

Minesweepers Badge

Hi Norm,
Great work and I can appreciate the time it takes to do things like this. I better start counting waves.

Regards,
Jody

Attached Files

JBRedMinesweeper.jpg (95.1 KB, 715 views)

**Norm F** · 08-02-2010, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Jody View Post

Hi Norm,
Great work and I can appreciate the time it takes to do things like this. I better start counting waves.

Regards,
Jody

Oooooooh, my favourite from your collection!

The quintessential Schwerin, with an unusual and rare version of the maker's mark if I'm not mistaken.

Best regards,
---Norm

**Adrian** · 08-03-2010, 08:34 AM

Thank you for your time in producing this excellent reference Norm. I'm just starting a Minesweeper collection and this is very timely!

**5ribbonbar** · 08-03-2010, 01:32 PM

What a great reference piece. It is work like this that makes the hobby enjoyable...thank you for the wonderful lessons !

**Norm F** · 08-09-2010, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

And now, here are the 11 badges (plus one distinctive fake) that occur exclusively in zinc, having no Tombak counterpart:

Type 2: 8-wave “Juncker-type”:

“Juncker-like” – possibly late Juncker production (always unmarked)
B.H. Mayer – Pforzheim (marked)
Förster & Barth – Pforzheim (both marked and unmarked)
Rudolf Souval (R.S.) – Vienna (marked)
Wilhelm Hobacher – Vienna (both marked and unmarked)
E. Ferdinand Wiedmann – Frankfurt (marked "ÜÜ")
Alois Rettenmaier, “flatback” maker - (always unmarked)

Type 3: 8-wave “RK-type”:

"AS in triangle" with the 2nd pattern eagle - Gablonz (marked and unmarked)
"feathered eagle" reproduction - post-war fake (always unmarked except one with a spurious Wiedmann mark)

Type 5: 7 to 7.5-"straight-waves":

LM (possibly Lind & Meyrer) – Idar-Oberstein (always marked "LM"), 7.5 waves
Unknown "straight wave" (possibly S.H.u.Co.) - possibly Idar-Oberstein if wartime (always unmarked), 7 waves

Type 6: 8-wave "Juncker-style":

"Juncker-style" - possibly late Juncker production (always unmarked)

To continue this along, I'll post the samplings of the of the "obligate zincer" groupings, i.e. the minesweeper badges that occur only in zinc with no tombak counterparts.

Here goes.

---Norm

**Norm F** · 08-09-2010, 09:46 PM

Type 2: 8-wave “Juncker-type” in zinc

Here are the seven exclusively-zinc badges of Type 2, 8-wave “Juncker-type”, again with the characteristic wave pattern as seen in the Type 2 Tombak badges posted previously. Remember this is not including the 4 zinc badges of this type by the known Tombak makers posted earlier.

What you can see again, is that this obverse design is by far the most common Minesweeper design - more common than the Schwerin design. Interestingly, all of these 7 badges use the same obverse design suggesting a common die source.

This situation is similar to what the Heer badge collectors sometimes call the "Vienna design", in that instance so called because it was a common design first noticed in the Vienna makers. However, we can see from the KM badges that this Minesweeper design definitely did not originate in Vienna since the Viennese makers' versions occur only in the later war zinc, whereas makers like P&L and Schickle in Pforzheim and S&L in Lüdenscheid made them earlier in Tombak.

The so-called “flatback” maker also fits into this design category, and has been attributed to Alois Rettenmaier in Schwäbisch-Gmund (see this thread). These range in quality from good to pretty awful, and although some are assuredly wartime produced it remains controversial as to whether some (especially the somewhat poor quality badges) could be post-war assembly for the souvenir and replacement market. Rettenamaier's business was uninterrupted at the end of the war.

Attached Files

**Norm F** · 08-09-2010, 09:56 PM

Type 3: 8-wave “RK-type” in zinc

Next are the 2 badges of Type 3, 8-wave “RK-type”.

Although the "AS in triangle" with the 2nd pattern eagle is most likely the same maker as the unmarked "AS in triangle" 1st pattern eagle badges mentioned earlier, the 2nd pattern eagle occurs only in zinc and so is included here.

The other badge in this category is in fact a fake that is based on the Gablonz design. Comparison shows it seems almost like a caricature of the "AS in triangle" design (both in its obverse and reverse). This one reproduction is included in the classification system as a warning for new collectors since it often comes up in discussion, and has it's own unique style rather than trying to duplicate a known badge and setup as most fakes do.

Attached Files

type3_zinc.jpg (233.6 KB, 311 views)

**Norm F** · 08-09-2010, 10:24 PM

Type 5: 7 to 7.5-"straight-wave" and Type 6: 8-wave "Juncker-style"

Next comes the category Type 5: 7 to 7.5-straight-waves, zinc.

There are no Tombak makers of Type 5, a category characterized by the unusually flat, "non-wavy", wave pattern.

The one "known" maker with their characteristic "7.5 wave" pattern, is "LM", a maker mark sometimes attributed to Lind & Meyrer of Idar-Oberstein but not yet confirmed.

The unknown "straight wave" maker is clearly from a different obverse die type from LM but is included in this category again because of it's very flat 7-wave pattern which is stylistically evocative of, but not identical to LM. Although it's always unmarked and the maker is unknown, its hardware is very similar to that used by S.H.u.Co., another Idar-Oberstein maker, on the Destroyer badge and the Infanterie Sturmabzeichen. The Destroyer badge is the only other Kriegsmarine badge so far known to be produced by S.H.u.Co. and most (but not all) producers of Destroyer badges also made a Minesweeper badge. Moreover, the indistinct eagle design is aesthetically similar to S.H.u.Co.’s Destroyer with its fat rounded talons. More evidence is needed to confirm this theory.

Finally comes the category Type 6: "Juncker-style" - a recent addition to the classification system.

This category contains only one badge, dubbed the "Juncker-style", found exclusively in zinc. The Type 6 wave pattern is stylistically intermediate between the Type 2 8-wave and the Type 5 straight-wave categories. The maker is unknown but this badge has several characteristics that are very suggestive of Juncker (even if not conclusive). Although the obverse design is different from Juncker's Tombak Minesweeper, the margins and the inner cutouts are almost identical suggesting shared trimming tooling and the reverse hardware is typical of Juncker. The eagle shows a distinctive double-breasted design.

Attached Files

**Norm F** · 08-09-2010, 10:41 PM

Summary

So there you have it.

At least 22 manufacturers of the Minesweeper Badge (if you include the “flatback” maker). Most of these can be found in the List of Minesweeper (Minensuch) manufacturers thread.

14 of these 22 are Tombak makers (of which 5 are exclusively Tombak makers and 9 made zinc versions as well)
9 of those 14 makers made zinc versions as well
8 of the 22 were zinc-only makers (if we attribute the “Juncker-like” and "Juncker-style" zinc badges to Juncker and both the marked “AS in triangle” and the similar unmarked Tombak maker to Adolf Scholze, Gablonz).

So that makes at least 31 badges of Tombak or zinc to collect (35 when you add in the Juncker and Scholze "spin-offs"). But then there are the hardware variants and maker-mark variants so the number burgeons from there! Currently, 96 such variations are included in the Classification Table and that excludes variations in finish, since that is a problematic area to sort out given the temptation by dealers and veterans alike to re-finish their worn and tired zincers. Like in most areas of collecting, you're never truly done.

But in the end they can all be grouped into the 6 categories I have presented in this thread.

Best regards,
---Norm

**John R.** · 08-10-2010, 05:05 AM

Great work Norm. I suggest that members print off this thread and save for reference, like when you go to a show and see an unmarked badges. This would certainly help.

John

**Mike Coleman** · 12-04-2010, 07:09 PM

Norm,
I have noticed that on some of the badges not all the acorns are complete but a few look like just acorn "caps". For example on the Schwerin badge it always looks like there are two across from each other on the inner wreath at 3 and 9 o'clock as well as one on the upper outer wreath. These seem to vary. I was wondering if there was any correlation between the wave types you present and the acorn "cap" pattern. I don't think this is just an incomplete strike as it seems too consistent. If this has already been discussed somewhere please forgive me but I don't recall ever seeing it before.
Mike

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Classification of Minesweeper Badges based on obverse design

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