"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[amiklic1]

Another one ;-)

I am not sure what to think about these badges. In a way I like them, but lack of strong proof of wartime existence is really disturbing ;-).

If they are original wartime pieces than they should be early models before 2nd pattern Schnellboot badge being established. In that case there should be some photo evidence, as there are thousand of photos from that period. Also, we might miss such a piece on a non-crisp photo, I believe.

If they are fakes, why there are no much more of them around? Hand finishing of these pieces for a small price they were selling for is just interesting, as in those years there was much easier way to get such a money than hand-finishing the badges ;-).

[amiklic1]

...

[Norm F]

If they are original wartime pieces than they should be early models before 2nd pattern Schnellboot badge being established. In that case there should be some photo evidence, as there are thousand of photos from that period. Also, we might miss such a piece on a non-crisp photo, I believe.

Hi Andjelo,

If made after January, 1943, any official KM S-Boat award should be the 2nd pattern design, but if they were made for the souvenir market than anything goes for time period. If they were intended by their maker to be candidates for official awards (although clearly an unsuccessful attempt) then one would expect they were pre-January 1943.

These are very distinctive and would be recognizable in a portrait photo, but I'm fairly confident you'll never find an authentic wartime photo of one in official wear. They simply were not official award pieces no matter when they were produced, in my opinion.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

If they are fakes, why there are no much more of them around?

Hi Andjelo,
Actually, as far as 1st pattern s-boots are concerned, that French made badges are the second most popular maker just behind tombak Schwerins to be seen on dealers sites IMO... Agree, they are less common than French made HSFs, CABs, U-boats and destroyers, on the other hand far more common than French made Minesweepers (one seen so far) and 2nd pattern S-boots (none seen so far). Logic is of no use when it comes to those badges
Cheers,
Hubert

[John T]

This is a fantastic thread. The second pattern E-Boat was instituted Jan 28, 1943. I am sure no opinions will be swayed at this point, at any rate as per one of my theories that if the badges were made as a sample proposed production run by a French company and outright rejected by German authorities it would make sense in that they were made early on before the introduction of the second pattern E-Boat which would explain the lack of this large badge in the series.

John

[BubbaZ]

This is a fantastic thread. The second pattern E-Boat was instituted Jan 28, 1943. I am sure no opinions will be swayed at this point, at any rate as per one of my theories that if the badges were made as a sample proposed production run by a French company and outright rejected by German authorities it would make sense in that they were made early on before the introduction of the second pattern E-Boat which would explain the lack of this large badge in the series.

John

Hi John,
Interesting theory, but if so then it would have been the largest 'sample proposed production run' ever known on this market, by far outnumbering the whole combined wartime production of such makers as Meybauer, B.H.Meyer, Beco, Hymmen, Assmann and FLL
Cheers,
Hubert

[amiklic1]

Honestly, I do not believe in and I think that there is zero chance that so much pieces was produced as a samples.

We're talking hundreds, if not thousands here ;-).

I think that the best step would be to pay a metallography test of one piece.
After that, we'd know much more ;-)

[Terrence]

interesting timeline. Before January of 1943 minus time to design and develop the dies (can a die expert representative give us an estimate?). So... if they were designed to be awarded to French seamen, would that date approximate any "high hope" that someone of rank and decision in Vichy France would have entertained the idea of an Axis French navy? The list of collaborators might be longer than we think. Could be an interesting correlation. Now, can we dive deep enough into French naval archives and see what might have been happening at that time window diplomatically. While I do not believe these badges were produced during the war, I am open minded.

Terrence

[John T]

While I do not doubt the production run is in the thousands the number of examples that I have obtained from vet sources can be counted on less than two hands. I think there is no doubt that American vets brought these back, the argument is when exactly they were produced. Was it July of 45 or of 42? There were many outside of the USA that dismissed Dachau SS cloth finds as fantasy just as others with less than pure motives used Dachau to peddle fakes. If these are all bogus then by whom who where and when?

[Norm F]

I just stumbled across this interesting old thread from 2005 in which Giel posted photos of a visit to a small private museum run by some collectors in Amblève in the north of France: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...smarine&page=2

They had a full set of mint "French-made" badges (minus the Minesweeper) in the usual cardboard cartons. Just thought it was a cool photo.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Dimitri D]

Just for information, this museum is in the city of Ambleteuse, not Amblève.

[Norm F]

Just for information, this museum is in the city of Ambleteuse, not Amblève.

Thanks Dmitri.

Musée Historique de la 2ème Guerre Mondiale - Rue des Garennes 2, Ambleteuse, France

Here's a slide show from this museum on flickr posted by Antonio Ponte:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/saigneu...n/photostream/

Best regards,
---Norm

[scotty1418]

I still challenge anyone on the origin on these.

I believe it's a misnomer to suggest Bacqueville manufactured them based on techniques and features...

They obviously are all of French origin based on sourcing we see... but use German techniques and attachment.

[Norm F]

I still challenge anyone on the origin on these.

I believe it's a misnomer to suggest Bacqueville manufactured them based on techniques and features...

They obviously are all of French origin based on sourcing we see... but use German techniques and attachment.

Hi Scotty,

I don't think anyone who follows this topic is claiming anymore that Bacqueville made these badges, especially since the firm denies it. The same applies to Mourgeon. Now, it's just an old nickname that's hard to shake (and somewhat misleading).

I agree they do seem to have arisen in France but there's nothing specifically "German" (or specifically any other country) about their production either.

Best regards,
---Norm

[scotty1418]

Hi Scotty,

I don't think anyone who follows this topic is claiming anymore that Bacqueville made these badges, especially since the firm denies it. The same applies to Mourgeon. Now, it's just an old nickname that's hard to shake (and somewhat misleading).

I agree they do seem to have arisen in France but there's nothing specifically "German" (or specifically any other country) about their production either.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,

What I mean by that is, that I'm not aware of any French piece made by any French badge manufacturer that ressembles these in terms of system of attachment. The style of the pinback is wholly German for me.